VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

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Joe Lanza
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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by Joe Lanza » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:36 pm

mlev76 wrote:
Ferrante207 wrote:
supersonic wrote:
http://ultimaterohmatchcomps.blogspot.c ... s.html?m=1

Plenty of classics in TNA, NJPW, Zero-One, PWG, and IWA-MS also.
This list will be incredibly helpful if we ever get an ROH OTT. Thank you! I'm downloading final battle 2005 as we speak.


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Here is the match Joe mentioned. A brutal classic:



Ki has some good pre ROH stuff that's worth checking out including his matches with Danielson at the Super 8 and King of Indies and his ladder match with Xavier from one of the NY indies in the early 2000s. All are on youtube I think.
Forgot it a was available legally. Cool.

To give perspective of how big this match was at the time, this was for the GHC junior title and main evented the show, even though Marufuji defended the GHC heavyweight title on the same show vs Bryan Danielson (this was the period where NOAH briefly tried the hot juniors on top but got gun shy after a bad Budokan draw). Low Ki was the hottest thing in the U.S. and KENTA was the hottest thing coming from Japan, so this was a legit dream match and it delivered.

I've said this a million times, but my brothers, who are not wrestling fans, walked in on me watching this DVD once, and were instantly enamored with Ki and spent the rest of the day YouTub'ing his shit.

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powerfulmgp
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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by powerfulmgp » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:28 pm

Whether it's football, basketball, hockey, boxing, mixed martial arts, or pro wrestling, everyone knows the score. Compete for long enough and you're going to end up in a bad way physically and/or mentally. Legacy doesn't mean shit if you can barely walk at 40 or start showing signs of early onset dementia at 50. Work smart, save your money, and get out.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by supersonic » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:42 pm

Danielson vs. Marufuji was for the ROH title. The GHC Heavyweight title played underneath the ROH title at Glory By Honor V Night 2 (Danielson vs. KENTA; Marufuji vs. McGuinness.)

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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by Ferrante207 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:30 pm

Suplexberry nailed it. Universe fans are like like wounded animals.


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Joe Lanza
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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by Joe Lanza » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:38 pm

supersonic wrote:Danielson vs. Marufuji was for the ROH title. The GHC Heavyweight title played underneath the ROH title at Glory By Honor V Night 2 (Danielson vs. KENTA; Marufuji vs. McGuinness.)
Oof, thanks.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by Garuda » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:31 pm

Ferrante207 wrote:Suplexberry nailed it. Universe fans are like like wounded animals.
That's I think why NJPW was so satisfying to get into. It's like leaving a cult and finally realizing how the old "normal" was insane.

I know that comes off as snotty but it really is like a view of the nuthouse.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by Speedy Bellerin » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:00 am

powerfulmgp wrote:Whether it's football, basketball, hockey, boxing, mixed martial arts, or pro wrestling, everyone knows the score. Compete for long enough and you're going to end up in a bad way physically and/or mentally. Legacy doesn't mean shit if you can barely walk at 40 or start showing signs of early onset dementia at 50. Work smart, save your money, and get out.
Some people aren't that pragmatic. There are people out there that are all glory. They used to hunt food and venture out of the cave for us now they do dumb shit in the name of sport.

Look at mountain climbing. A sport where nobody is watching theres barely any money and the number of fatalities is shocking but they can't stop. Micheal Schumacher risked his neck in F1 for nearly 2 decades then he goes skiing and now he's in a vegetative state. It can happen any where, any time, in so many different sports.
Garuda wrote:
Ferrante207 wrote:Suplexberry nailed it. Universe fans are like like wounded animals.
That's I think why NJPW was so satisfying to get into. It's like leaving a cult and finally realizing how the old "normal" was insane.

I know that comes off as snotty but it really is like a view of the nuthouse.
I completely feel the same way. My first G1 had me pretty emotional, I'd forgotten I could feel that way a out wrestling. I'd started to forget what storys you could tell bell to bell.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by supersonic » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:46 am

Curt Hennig to Brock Lesnar in 2002:

Get in to get out.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by mlev76 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:02 am

Speedy Bellerin wrote:
Speedy Bellerin wrote:
suplexberry wrote:), it's erratic, often lacks long-term planning and is treated like it doesn't matter (which in turn means fan reactions don't matter), there's this contingent of people who either genuinely believe or have successfully convinced themselves that this is just how wrestling is. .
I didn't want to quote your entire post but I largely agree with all of it. WWE have become appallingly bad at story telling not just by wrestling standards but by the standards of fiction in genral. I think this Jinder situation is more evidence of that. Look I think the guy stinks but I'm for as many people getting over as possible, if he does then good for him, but last week he was the butt of a joke and the bottom of the barrel this week he's meant to be a main eventer. Nothing matters. So why should I care?

Business wise it doesn't initially cost them much more than a bit of ratings turbulence. I wonder what they could make if they had an extra million viewers each week, if the network had an extra half million subscribers, if tickets were slightly more in demand.

Thanks for the show Joe. Whether you have a co pilot or you fly solo it's always appreciated.
This year's biggest show featured the culmination of numerous long term and medium term stories. Before that, other storylines were paid off in decisive, satisfying fashion. Meanwhile, naming a new person #1 contender is the start, not the end, of a story. If you want to make the case you are making, the Jinder thing is the wrong way to do it.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by mlev76 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:03 am

Ferrante207 wrote:Suplexberry nailed it. Universe fans are like like wounded animals.


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Sure sign of a well thought out argument is resorting to name calling.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by mlev76 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:11 am

Very fair discussion of the Jinder situation and I appreciate you bringing up something most seem to ignore-Orton's likelihood of causing this to fail. I don't think anyone has had more on paper success that translated into less compelling moments than him. Not to bring this back to Roman Reigns, but since you've said his ceiling is Randy Orton, isn't true that Roman has at least had one great Mania moment (match with Brock) whereas Orton never did? I'm still shocked they put the title back on him at all.

The issue with head trauma is a little more widespread than you made it seem and while its been limited in wrestling, the violence caused by CTE in other sports is fairly extensive. Its not just Benoit, but also Daniel Bryan that makes me cringe at the idea of working a head injury. I really do feel it is different than working a body part that doesn't contain a part of your central nervous system.

Oh and Larry Dallas sucks.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:25 am

So basically the booking of Jinder IS the worst booking of a challenger of all time, but also, nothing WWE does matters so...there's no point complaining? Well that's unsatisfying in every way. What do I even watch this for?

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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by Joe Lanza » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:30 am

It's not really bad booking in WWE context. He won a #1 contender match, so now he's the #1 contender. That's how they do things. You aren't supposed to remember or care what happened before that match. He won that one, and that's all that matters.

There is no depth to how they do things, and they've trained the audience very well to not expect it.

They book like the fans have the memory retention of a goldfish. Goldfish booking. That's what I'm calling it now.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:42 am

Joe Lanza wrote:It's not really bad booking in WWE context. He won a #1 contender match, so now he's the #1 contender. That's how they do things. You aren't supposed to remember or care what happened before that match. He won that one, and that's all that matters.

There is no depth to how they do things, and they've trained the audience very well to not expect it.

They book like the fans have the memory retention of a goldfish. Goldfish booking. That's what I'm calling it now.

Yeah but, isn't that awful? If any other form of entertainment did that, it would be universally panned. So...why should this be any different? Cause it's wrasslin'? It still stinks.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Jinder Mahal, Headbutts, EVOLVE, Impact Wrestling

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:46 am

I 100% agree with your point about working the fans. Fans are so used to knowing things now and so jaded that its almost comfortable to us. Fuck that, work us.

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