VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

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VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:15 pm

This week on the VOW Flagship we'll tell you whose stock rose and whose stock has fallen now that the Mae Young Classic has aired in full, and discuss our top overall performers and top matches. The latest GFW/Impact turmoil is broken down, along with a preview of New Japan Destruction in Fukushima with notes from the 9/8 Korakuen show, and a discussion of PWG business and the "Super Indie" model's place in the indie ecosystem.



VOW: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2017/0 ... tion-more/

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:24 pm

Something about not having anyone prodding him makes Joe sound surprisingly sane.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:28 pm

SURPRISINGLY SANE

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:48 pm

I love that despite not having someone to bounce off of, that Joe still found a way to bring up a seedy topic like accepting cash to blow into car starting device for a person who was convicted of DUI. Good job Joe!

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:55 pm

Sorry, you lost it again with the PWG thing. No one is asking PWG to become a SoCal indie showcase. People just want a bone to be thrown. PWG will sellout no matter what. They will sell mountains of DVDs no matter what. NO MATTER WHAT! I mean, they literally just booked Jonah Rock! How many tickets did he sell?

Ultimately, is anything going to change if Sami Callihan and Matt Sydal are left off a card for two local guys who can go? No. Business will stay exactly the same. The only difference is, two local guys will become stars if they work a good match. That's it! So what's the downside for PWG? No one is asking to change their cards dramatically. Just switch out one or two guys for a big show! Maybe book Jacob Fatu one or two shows a year!

I do agree that PWG's big attraction is star power for SOME people, but I think you underestimate how many people go/watch because the brand is the draw. There are a ton of Wredditor Bullet Club fan types (you know, ROH's current audience) that love and watch PWG despite never watching any of the guys in any other promotion. I mean, is Dave Meltzer going to stop gassing up PWG because they don't book Mark Haskins for a show or two? He doesn't even watch the other promotions where half these guys work! The talent BARELY matters. PWG is makes the talent matter!

One thing you are right about, is that the super indie model is what sells tickets. It sucks, but its true. I just wonder how long that model will last if you don't protect your business super carefully like PWG has.

Edit: All this is moot anyway, because it comes down to "I don't like this and would prefer it to be booked like this" vs "Well this way does better business." Personally, I could care less about business. I'm in wrestling because I enjoy it, not to pay for Super Dragon to renovate his screened in porch. If the only argument is "this makes better business sense", that's not an argument as for why its good. It's a complete difference in philosophy when it comes to consumption and entertainment that will never get resolved. So yeah I did just type a bunch of words and then call them all meaningless. But that's what we all do when talking wrestling anyway.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:13 pm

armsofsleep wrote: Ultimately, is anything going to change if Sami Callihan and Matt Sydal are left off a card for two local guys who can go? No. Business will stay exactly the same. The only difference is, two local guys will become stars if they work a good match. That's it! So what's the downside for PWG? No one is asking to change their cards dramatically. Just switch out one or two guys for a big show! Maybe book Jacob Fatu one or two shows a year!


Edit: All this is moot anyway, because it comes down to "I don't like this and would prefer it to be booked like this" vs "Well this way does better business." Personally, I could care less about business. I'm in wrestling because I enjoy it, not to pay for Super Dragon to renovate his screened in porch. If the only argument is "this makes better business sense", that's not an argument as for why its good. It's a complete difference in philosophy when it comes to consumption and entertainment that will never get resolved. So yeah I did just type a bunch of words and then call them all meaningless. But that's what we all do when talking wrestling anyway.
tbf, I did make both of these same points in my 3am nonsensical rant.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:15 pm

armsofsleep wrote:Sorry, you lost it again with the PWG thing. No one is asking PWG to become a SoCal indie showcase. People just want a bone to be thrown. PWG will sellout no matter what. They will sell mountains of DVDs no matter what. NO MATTER WHAT! I mean, they literally just booked Jonah Rock! How many tickets did he sell?

Ultimately, is anything going to change if Sami Callihan and Matt Sydal are left off a card for two local guys who can go? No. Business will stay exactly the same. The only difference is, two local guys will become stars if they work a good match. That's it! So what's the downside for PWG? No one is asking to change their cards dramatically. Just switch out one or two guys for a big show! Maybe book Jacob Fatu one or two shows a year!

I do agree that PWG's big attraction is star power for SOME people, but I think you underestimate how many people go/watch because the brand is the draw. There are a ton of Wredditor Bullet Club fan types (you know, ROH's current audience) that love and watch PWG despite never watching any of the guys in any other promotion. I mean, is Dave Meltzer going to stop gassing up PWG because they don't book Mark Haskins for a show or two? He doesn't even watch the other promotions where half these guys work! The talent BARELY matters. PWG is makes the talent matter!

One thing you are right about, is that the super indie model is what sells tickets. It sucks, but its true. I just wonder how long that model will last if you don't protect your business super carefully like PWG has.

Edit: All this is moot anyway, because it comes down to "I don't like this and would prefer it to be booked like this" vs "Well this way does better business." Personally, I could care less about business. I'm in wrestling because I enjoy it, not to pay for Super Dragon to renovate his screened in porch. If the only argument is "this makes better business sense", that's not an argument as for why its good. It's a complete difference in philosophy when it comes to consumption and entertainment that will never get resolved. So yeah I did just type a bunch of words and then call them all meaningless. But that's what we all do when talking wrestling anyway.
Wasn't on the show so I couldn't give my two-cents so I'll do it here.

PWG is what it is. They do what they do and they aren't going to change. I used to get frustrated by the DVD model and the turnaround until someone close to the situation gave us a very long explanation about their motives. They don't care. They don't care if you like what they do or not, they are going to do it their way.

It's obviously not something being done for those in power to make money. It's an excuse to rent a building and hang out with the lads and all their friends for a weekend of debauchery. They are under no obligation to book certain talents, expose the California scene or whatever else. They do what they do and don't care because they sell out in 2 minutes anyway.

Now some will argue that aesthetically it would be better to book some new or unique talent (I don't disagree) but, okay...? Go watch those guys in their other promotions if it means that much to you. Nobody is forcing you to watch SUPER INDIE PWG if that's not your thing anymore. I totally get why some would eye roll a lot of the same people in the company year in and year out but if it remains popular (it has) then the guys can stick to their weekend of getting drunk and screaming about stuff. Will it maybe bite them in the ass years down the line? Maybe, we'll see. It hasn't though and this year was one of the more unique BOLA lineups in quite some time so it seems like an odd time for people to be making these claims.

Again, if you really want to watch Jacob Fatu, great. Go watch him. There are a number of promotions who book him regularly. Once he gets good enough or gets enough hype then he'll be a potential PWG target. Simply being a regional talent is not enough to get booked by PWG anymore and frankly, I can't blame them. If they get to have fun and be successful at the same time, why should you follow anyone's desires but your own?

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:25 pm

Never thought of it as "lets get our lads together and wrestle and then film it." Probably not enough made of the clique that sort of runs things. It's probably more of an issue more than PWG is the indie model (and, according to people like Meltzer, the best indie company of all time and untouchable by any others) than the fact that it actually exists. FTR, I'm totally fine with it existing, it's just in the wrestling fan DNA to complain.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by mlev76 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:15 pm

Good stuff on the MYC and agree with most of your takes. It's very weird to be bored by saying Sane was the best, but it was very clear she was a level above everyone else.

On the PWG front, there's two things. One, I (and I've heard from others who agree with this) liked the product, with all the caveats about the distribution model taken into account, better in 2012 when it felt special and unique as opposed to what it is today. And yeah, the local talents added to that. Another aspect to that was that guys that are now clearly national talents (the Bucks, Cage, Willie Mack, etc.) felt more like local talent then, so perhaps some of it is just the natural outgrowth of their local talent becoming nationally better known. It felt more like an actual promotion rather than a career development destination.

The second thing is because they rely exclusively on non-local talent, there is an inherent risk that other promotions will be hurt because people will cancel to take a PWG booking. This has already happened and while the culprit has done the same to other promotions, it does feel like a problem perhaps with no solution.

Finally, I see Rich is now the Matt Damon of the show. I guess we should expect the viral videos to start popping up any day now...

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by ErinQuinn » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:16 am

Joe Lanza wrote:SURPRISINGLY SANE
I hope this has made it into the Joe Lanza list of nicknames

A list which is quickly becoming as long as a Steve Corino ROH introduction

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:53 am

I liked Dakota Kai vs Rhea Ripley. From talking to my casual fan friends they all seem intrigued with Dakota. She also seemed clearly injured in her match with Sane. I think she'll be fine. Bianca Belair was obviously awesome. I can't say anyone's stock really fell besides Marti Bell. I thought Mercedes vs Shayna was the best match of the tournament. She had disappointed me until then, but that performance saved her in my eyes. I think Nicole Savoy was someone who didn't get to show a lot. Her match with Lerae was very short.

Imma keep tooting the horn on the Rhea Ripley bandwagon. She's got mega upside.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by itsberlo » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:50 pm

Joe - I agree with most everything you said about the Mae Young classic. My only opposing thought was that I feel that Nicole Savoy's stock fell a lot more than Dakota Kai's. Savoy was totally forgettable with the fact her nickname was "queen of the suplexes" and I really don't remember her throwing any is pretty bad.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by suplexberry » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:11 pm

PWG has lost me as a viewer but you guys are right, they are gonna continue on as is and probably won't change a thing even if business takes a slight hit (and it probably won't, there's always new fans coming in to replace old ones). I guess if you look at it from their perspective, they book these shows as a side gig and their side gig is considered the creme de la creme of the business and probably makes good money. That's a luxurious position to be in, and to keep it at the same venue, still book your friends and just be comfortable in knowing you can run another show without any issue, that's just multiple cherries on top.

I can argue why it'd be better for me as a fan and maybe even wrestling fandom in general (because new fans to indy wrestling always get recommended PWG and a lot of people will never check them out because ordering DVD's from the internet is not instant gratification, and may be a hassle, especially for the foreign fan who may have to deal with high shipping costs and potential customs charges) or maybe even for the wrestlers for them to change their model, but really what's the point? They're not gonna.

Every fan goes through phases and I think it was important for me to check out PWG and see this grainy, unglamorous presentation of wrestling still be awesome, with an electric atmosphere and all the guys there to look like stars even if I never saw the entrances (even when you're in the building you don't get to bloody see them). Even if it's not my top 3 promotions anymore, it has an important place in the world of pro wrestling, both as a place where newer fans venture outside televised wrestling to the buckwild jungle that is independent wrestling, and also as a place where the hardcore fans discover new faves or watch their faves become international mega stars.

Anyway, liking the new trend of non-title feuds in NJPW a lot, even if one of them has Yujiro in it.

I'm slowly turning into the internet's #1 Kawato fan. I think he's still awkward but figuring out how to present himself in a way that channels that massive crowd support. Like he's not gonna be the best guy in the match, he's still learning, but he's got so much fight and fire in him. He seems to have adopted the "outta nowhere" missile dropkick Ibushi does. I love it. If he doesn't win the potentially re-introduced Young Lion's Cup I'm gonna be salty for months.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by Hagan » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:41 pm

I'm in on the Ripley bandwagon too. I am shocked more people weren't impressed. For someone so young and so green, she leaped off the screen as a superstar. Great charisma and a great look. She could be a huge star.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Mae Young Classic Stock Rising/Falling, GFW & more!

Post by rovert » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:51 pm

itsberlo wrote:Joe - I agree with most everything you said about the Mae Young classic. My only opposing thought was that I feel that Nicole Savoy's stock fell a lot more than Dakota Kai's. Savoy was totally forgettable with the fact her nickname was "queen of the suplexes" and I really don't remember her throwing any is pretty bad.
It was her first week back from major knee surgery.
Hagan wrote:I'm in on the Ripley bandwagon too. I am shocked more people weren't impressed. For someone so young and so green, she leaped off the screen as a superstar. Great charisma and a great look. She could be a huge star.
I compared her to 1998 Edge and MYC alternate Nicole Matthews agreed with me on Twitter. Raw, lanky but not, long legs, wide shoulders, the facials and obviously the star quality.

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