VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

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Joe Lanza
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Re: VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:04 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:52 pm
I hope Lanza doesn't apologize for a single thing he said in his Mania Weekend rant.
I will not apologize, I have nothing to apologize for. I buried some shows and riffed on some matches. This shouldn't even be a thing.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

Post by mlev76 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:56 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:00 pm
mlev76 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:21 pm
BoxingRobes wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:52 pm
I hope Lanza doesn't apologize for a single thing he said in his Mania Weekend rant. He is 100% correct. I am one of the potential Mania Weekend visitors that this turns off to the point I won't waste my money on this filth.

The Flagship is correct...its oversaturated now. Everyone trying to leach off the weekend and coming with Swoggle type nonsense.

Not only do events like this oversaturate the market, it weakens everything else. I didn't go to the Orlando Weekend shows two years ago (or whenever it was) because nothing got me motivated to go. Watching Keith Lee 7 times isn't great, no matter how awesome he is. At some point, you know this man doesn't care about the random Darby Allin match he's in so why should I? The cards of even the BIG BOYS are weakened by this type of nonsense.

I'm over it and won't go to a Mania Weekend for the foreseeable future because of the oversaturation of the weekend.

All I want...Mania, NXT, an Evolve double shot, a ROH show, some Kaiju Big Battel, a Joey Janela event...maybe one more event that is unique that gives me an outlet to see some talent I've never seen before (maybe a lucha show?). Anything beyond that, go away.
Oversaturation hurts only if every promotion is using the same group of guys and with few exceptions, there's not a ton of cross-pollination this year. Part of this is because there aren't a ton of "big names" to be used and part of it is likely some form of exclusivity built into whatever contracts the promotions have with their talent. There are obvious exceptions and some guys on the margins working across the board, but I'm curious which specific guys people are claiming are burning the candle at both ends with bookings? Generally (and we don't know who will show up at Wrestlcon, so that's an unknown), while there are more shows, most wrestlers are working less.
Oversaturation hurts in any incarnation...last year and in the previous few years it was oversaturation of talent that worked show after show after show and the end result was a lack of quality. Why would I take a crazy trip across the country to see some three star run-of-the-mill work?

This year, due to the lack of talent and what talent being available has some sort of exclusivity in some way...its now just an oversaturation of shows...and those shows are using some ham'n'egger talent.

I used to go to Mania Weekend for a fun, not overly complicated weekend (path was clear and simple) celebrating wrestling and everyone generally brought their A-game. The DGUSA shows with the multimans, big, built-to dream matches (Gargano v. SHINGO), opportunities to see some rare appearance type talent (Shingo, CIMA, Doi, etc)...

Now, its just a money grab for everyone involved and the quality across the board lacks. Last year, there was one match that was one that rewarded the traveler...Riddle v. Ospraey. Everything else...I'd be very upset if I paid for that. And I don't mind the "specialty" shows (Janela, Bloodsport, Pancakes n Piledrivers, Kaiju)...they make the weekend. But we've got the point where bumfuck Indie from Nowheresville, USA is trying to run shows that weekend all over the place. No thanks. Hard pass.
There are certain shows that have no business running, but there are some, specifically the ones that Joe buried, that have a strong following and the idea of being able to see an AIW or BLP live is a draw to folks like me. The only reason I won't attend either has nothing to do with the shows looking bad (both look good in the context of those promotions) is because as a parent who has more on my plate than will allow me to attend every show I'd like to see, I had to pick my battles time wise and family wise.

I don't get how shows that you don't like and would never attend affects you at all. Ever been to Orlando? There are so many garbage attractions surrounding the big amusement areas that I wouldn't visit if you paid me. And yet their pressence won't affect my desire to go to Disney or Universal. If Joe Smith wants to go to the third rate amusement park, it literally has no affect on my trip and enjoyment thereof. Same goes for their being shows that you or I wouldn't attend. Don't go to shows you don't like, don't stream them, choose your own path and ignore the rest.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

Post by BoxingRobes » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:26 pm

mlev76 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:56 pm

There are certain shows that have no business running, but there are some, specifically the ones that Joe buried, that have a strong following and the idea of being able to see an AIW or BLP live is a draw to folks like me. The only reason I won't attend either has nothing to do with the shows looking bad (both look good in the context of those promotions) is because as a parent who has more on my plate than will allow me to attend every show I'd like to see, I had to pick my battles time wise and family wise.

I don't get how shows that you don't like and would never attend affects you at all. Ever been to Orlando? There are so many garbage attractions surrounding the big amusement areas that I wouldn't visit if you paid me. And yet their pressence won't affect my desire to go to Disney or Universal. If Joe Smith wants to go to the third rate amusement park, it literally has no affect on my trip and enjoyment thereof. Same goes for their being shows that you or I wouldn't attend. Don't go to shows you don't like, don't stream them, choose your own path and ignore the rest.
Because then I am not getting the absolute best work from the best talents wrestling each other. Oversaturation hurts Quality.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

Post by supersonic » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:05 am

BoxingRobes wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:26 pm
mlev76 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:56 pm

There are certain shows that have no business running, but there are some, specifically the ones that Joe buried, that have a strong following and the idea of being able to see an AIW or BLP live is a draw to folks like me. The only reason I won't attend either has nothing to do with the shows looking bad (both look good in the context of those promotions) is because as a parent who has more on my plate than will allow me to attend every show I'd like to see, I had to pick my battles time wise and family wise.

I don't get how shows that you don't like and would never attend affects you at all. Ever been to Orlando? There are so many garbage attractions surrounding the big amusement areas that I wouldn't visit if you paid me. And yet their pressence won't affect my desire to go to Disney or Universal. If Joe Smith wants to go to the third rate amusement park, it literally has no affect on my trip and enjoyment thereof. Same goes for their being shows that you or I wouldn't attend. Don't go to shows you don't like, don't stream them, choose your own path and ignore the rest.
Because then I am not getting the absolute best work from the best talents wrestling each other. Oversaturation hurts Quality.
As mentioned, this is why I miss 2006-08.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

Post by Danwaka » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:15 am

BoxingRobes wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:26 pm
Because then I am not getting the absolute best work from the best talents wrestling each other. Oversaturation hurts Quality.
And why is this the fault of the promotions alone? Do the wrestlers not get their share of the blame for taking the easy money and working seven matches in three days instead of focusing with two or three (or even just one!) and having the best possible match they can have with one promotion?

I mean seriously, people single out the Joey Janela / GCW themed shows as meriting inclusion at WrestleMania but five years ago GCW was a zit on CZW's taint and the Joey Janela of five years ago wouldn't meet the arbitrary requirements of today's 'WrestleMania Weekend'.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:28 am

Danwaka wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:15 am
BoxingRobes wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:26 pm
Because then I am not getting the absolute best work from the best talents wrestling each other. Oversaturation hurts Quality.
And why is this the fault of the promotions alone? Do the wrestlers not get their share of the blame for taking the easy money and working seven matches in three days instead of focusing with two or three (or even just one!) and having the best possible match they can have with one promotion?

I mean seriously, people single out the Joey Janela / GCW themed shows as meriting inclusion at WrestleMania but five years ago GCW was a zit on CZW's taint and the Joey Janela of five years ago wouldn't meet the arbitrary requirements of today's 'WrestleMania Weekend'.
I will never begrudge wrestlers for taking as many bookings as possible and maximizing earnings.

Here's the thing. I don't even begrudge the promotions for running. But do I think we'd be better off with less shows for a variety of reasons? Yes.

GCW broke out two years ago and earned their cred. Maybe some of the new players will do the same, and maybe it'll even be one of the promotions I buried> Maybe some of the places i've praised will be the ones to fall off. Just seems to me that with the perfect storm of more shows than ever combined with a severe lack of marketable/high level talent, there is a ton of excess fat that could use trimming.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

Post by mlev76 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:35 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:26 pm
mlev76 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:56 pm

There are certain shows that have no business running, but there are some, specifically the ones that Joe buried, that have a strong following and the idea of being able to see an AIW or BLP live is a draw to folks like me. The only reason I won't attend either has nothing to do with the shows looking bad (both look good in the context of those promotions) is because as a parent who has more on my plate than will allow me to attend every show I'd like to see, I had to pick my battles time wise and family wise.

I don't get how shows that you don't like and would never attend affects you at all. Ever been to Orlando? There are so many garbage attractions surrounding the big amusement areas that I wouldn't visit if you paid me. And yet their pressence won't affect my desire to go to Disney or Universal. If Joe Smith wants to go to the third rate amusement park, it literally has no affect on my trip and enjoyment thereof. Same goes for their being shows that you or I wouldn't attend. Don't go to shows you don't like, don't stream them, choose your own path and ignore the rest.
Because then I am not getting the absolute best work from the best talents wrestling each other. Oversaturation hurts Quality.
I have looked over the announced cards and there are a few outliers with four bookings over the course of 3-4 days, but most of the top talent is sticking to 1-2 locales and not killing themselves like they had in the past. Maybe I'm missing it, but I'm not seeing the crazy 6-8 bookings guys this year.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

Post by Danwaka » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:55 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:28 am

I will never begrudge wrestlers for taking as many bookings as possible and maximizing earnings. I don't even begrudge the promotions for running.

But do I think we'd be better off with less shows for a variety of reasons? Yes.

GCW broke out two years ago and earned their cred. Maybe some of the new players will do the same, and maybe it'll even be one of the promotions I buried> Maybe some of the places i've praised will be the ones to fall off. Just seems to me that with the perfect storm of more shows than ever combined with a severe lack of marketable/high level talent, there is a ton of excess fat that could use trimming.
I mean, it seems like the opposite to me. It feels like the perfect opportunity for a lot of guys to get over as acts by using the Weekend crowd as a medium to the greater market and consequently refresh the scene in America.

And if I'm being honest, I'm surprised you guys aren't comparing this a little bit to those old tape-trading days you seem nostalgic for in your own ways.

It's just instead of a limited number of shows to access, you instead have too much with that accessibility and variety allowing more and more dedicated and knowledgeable niches to be carved out. Instead of hunting NOAH tapes at ROH shows because someone tipped you off on a match, you're just clicking a stream or an on-demand service.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

Post by BoxingRobes » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:51 am

supersonic wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:05 am
BoxingRobes wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:26 pm
mlev76 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:56 pm

There are certain shows that have no business running, but there are some, specifically the ones that Joe buried, that have a strong following and the idea of being able to see an AIW or BLP live is a draw to folks like me. The only reason I won't attend either has nothing to do with the shows looking bad (both look good in the context of those promotions) is because as a parent who has more on my plate than will allow me to attend every show I'd like to see, I had to pick my battles time wise and family wise.

I don't get how shows that you don't like and would never attend affects you at all. Ever been to Orlando? There are so many garbage attractions surrounding the big amusement areas that I wouldn't visit if you paid me. And yet their pressence won't affect my desire to go to Disney or Universal. If Joe Smith wants to go to the third rate amusement park, it literally has no affect on my trip and enjoyment thereof. Same goes for their being shows that you or I wouldn't attend. Don't go to shows you don't like, don't stream them, choose your own path and ignore the rest.
Because then I am not getting the absolute best work from the best talents wrestling each other. Oversaturation hurts Quality.
As mentioned, this is why I miss 2006-08.
I attended 2013 (NY/NJ), 2012 (Miami), and 2008 (Orlando) Mania and have seen some of the spectrum of Mania Weekend. Its a much better event when the path-of-success is clear, but provides a diverse taste of pro wrestling (it is a celebration of this form of entertainment)...after you've seen numerous good matches and good shows, it doesn't matter if Mania is good or not...at that point, you've gotten so much great wrestling and had such a good time, as long as you get a couple of Mania moments, you're going home very happy.

Last year's Mania Weekend...I was very tempted to go...but ultimately, didn't. Same with the year prior. Why? Mania Weekend (not Mania itself...who cares about that?) was weak due to clear oversaturation. I do miss the higher quality over fewer commitments / events.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

Post by BoxingRobes » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:56 am

mlev76 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:35 pm
BoxingRobes wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:26 pm
mlev76 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:56 pm

There are certain shows that have no business running, but there are some, specifically the ones that Joe buried, that have a strong following and the idea of being able to see an AIW or BLP live is a draw to folks like me. The only reason I won't attend either has nothing to do with the shows looking bad (both look good in the context of those promotions) is because as a parent who has more on my plate than will allow me to attend every show I'd like to see, I had to pick my battles time wise and family wise.

I don't get how shows that you don't like and would never attend affects you at all. Ever been to Orlando? There are so many garbage attractions surrounding the big amusement areas that I wouldn't visit if you paid me. And yet their pressence won't affect my desire to go to Disney or Universal. If Joe Smith wants to go to the third rate amusement park, it literally has no affect on my trip and enjoyment thereof. Same goes for their being shows that you or I wouldn't attend. Don't go to shows you don't like, don't stream them, choose your own path and ignore the rest.
Because then I am not getting the absolute best work from the best talents wrestling each other. Oversaturation hurts Quality.
I have looked over the announced cards and there are a few outliers with four bookings over the course of 3-4 days, but most of the top talent is sticking to 1-2 locales and not killing themselves like they had in the past. Maybe I'm missing it, but I'm not seeing the crazy 6-8 bookings guys this year.
Nothing you said is wrong.

However, while wrestlers will work less bookings...there will be an influx of talent (that, we must agree is not up to quality of last year or the year before, etc) stretched out over much more shows (someone should do the math of total shows over the past few Mania Weekends)...you're still not getting the quality of performance as you'd hope.

I am all for Capitalism, but as a consumer, I feel I'm getting lesser quality products with the oversaturation (vertical or horizontal). Its just math. Also, its also my personal opinion on what the weekend should be. If I am someone dropping in just for Mania Weekend and as a consumer of wrestling, I assume that non-consumers would want to the best possible product as they are there just taking in the weekend...you aren't selling Joe Title-Belt to possibly subscribe to your promotion or potentially invest in it with Swoggle v. Honky Tonk Man or whatever the hell you're doing on some of these lower tiered Indies.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

Post by BoxingRobes » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:42 am

Danwaka wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:15 am
BoxingRobes wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:26 pm
Because then I am not getting the absolute best work from the best talents wrestling each other. Oversaturation hurts Quality.
And why is this the fault of the promotions alone? Do the wrestlers not get their share of the blame for taking the easy money and working seven matches in three days instead of focusing with two or three (or even just one!) and having the best possible match they can have with one promotion?

I mean seriously, people single out the Joey Janela / GCW themed shows as meriting inclusion at WrestleMania but five years ago GCW was a zit on CZW's taint and the Joey Janela of five years ago wouldn't meet the arbitrary requirements of today's 'WrestleMania Weekend'.
Never said it was. Its everyone. Some performances from some great Indie wrestlers the past few years were embarrassing.

The Beyond show after midnight with a clearly tired Matt Riddle v. just woke up Dijak or a Keith Lee v. Jeff Cobb match where both guys wanted to wrap up early remain my matches of example to show how bad Mania Weekend has been on the whole.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Young Bucks & AAA, AJPW, Mania Weekend & more!

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:47 pm

This whole indy celebration really hit peak in Dallas in my opinion. Wrestlecon and WWN were within walking distance of each other, every show was talent under the radar trying to knock it out of the park etc.

Now it's 40 shows, many with just a gimmick to it, talent tries to book as many as they can, because it's just a "love letter" to wrestlers and we want to support the community etc, and for the guys to have an easy night, play the hits, etc. But we're all in on it being a money making thing rather than a "workrate" thing and so long as you realize that, you can't be disappointed. If you expect it to be like it was, that's when it becomes law of diminishing returns.

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