The Lucha Underground Thread

WWE, TNA, and all U.S./Canada based graps talk
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Rich Kraetsch
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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:41 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:Eh. I wasn't a fan of Fenix actually beating Mil in the first place...but I guess you needed a reason for Aztec Warfare to be for the title. Getting rid of the champ "first" is, IMO, great booking. It gets you invested for the rest as you know you'll see a title change.
Absolutely. That's why I loved it. You referenced Heyman earlier and that's exactly what it is. Predictability gets thrown out of the window immediately and you have to stand up and take notice for the rest of the match. I thought that was a brilliant plan from LU. Fenix is/was a transitional champion. He was never supposed to be a real threat and even his win was some parts banana peel. I was 100% cool with the booking.

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by mlev76 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:48 pm

One other aspect of the booking that bugged me is the fact that despite the fact Matanza was KILLING people, the others still went after him one at a time. Now, to build him into the monster they want, he can't succumb to the Rumble norm of everyone ganging up on him at once and tossing him, but seriously...did none of them think "Hey, this fucker is gutting everyone coming at him. Maybe us 2/3/4 can slow him down and stop him?"

If this was WWE, the others would be lambasted as being 'geeks' for such stupidity.

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by dancecab » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:52 pm

mlev76 wrote:One other aspect of the booking that bugged me is the fact that despite the fact Matanza was KILLING people, the others still went after him one at a time. Now, to build him into the monster they want, he can't succumb to the Rumble norm of everyone ganging up on him at once and tossing him, but seriously...did none of them think "Hey, this fucker is gutting everyone coming at him. Maybe us 2/3/4 can slow him down and stop him?"

If this was WWE, the others would be lambasted as being 'geeks' for such stupidity.
But see they did try that but Chavo is a scumbag.

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by mlev76 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:00 pm

dancecab wrote:
mlev76 wrote:One other aspect of the booking that bugged me is the fact that despite the fact Matanza was KILLING people, the others still went after him one at a time. Now, to build him into the monster they want, he can't succumb to the Rumble norm of everyone ganging up on him at once and tossing him, but seriously...did none of them think "Hey, this fucker is gutting everyone coming at him. Maybe us 2/3/4 can slow him down and stop him?"

If this was WWE, the others would be lambasted as being 'geeks' for such stupidity.
But see they did try that but Chavo is a scumbag.
Only after half those left were eliminated. And since its pinfalls, it wasn't the rapid fire eliminations like the Rumble.

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by Chismo » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:25 pm

If this was WWE.

I swear, if there is one thing 15 +years of internet showed me, it's that everyone talks about WWE even when a topic has nothing to do with it whatsoever. People are being possessed by WWE without even knowing it. Applying WWE logic to everything. I remember a forum when it happened in a NOAH thread, I'm talking 10 years ago. I remember during ROH vs. CZW feud longtime fans bringing up DX as an argument. WWE is fucking everywhere in everyone's heads, and funny thing is, an innocent bystander would probably expect something different from online hardcores. But hey, the more things change...

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by mlev76 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:30 pm

Chismo wrote:If this was WWE.

I swear, if there is one thing 15 +years of internet showed me, it's that everyone talks about WWE even when a topic has nothing to do with it whatsoever. People are being possessed by WWE without even knowing it. Applying WWE logic to everything. I remember a forum when it happened in a NOAH thread, I'm talking 10 years ago. I remember during ROH vs. CZW feud longtime fans bringing up DX as an argument. WWE is fucking everywhere in everyone's heads, and funny thing is, an innocent bystander would probably expect something different from online hardcores. But hey, the more things change...
Well, it is the largest and most prominent wrestling promotion on earth. It is also one of the most actively criticized promotion by the 'smart' fans. So, the purpose of bringing them up is not to say LU or anyone needs or should be like them. In fact, they shouldn't, thus why groups who aren't are generally lauded while cheap imitations like TNA generally aren't.

No, my point is that in discussing AW, many proponents of this match have directly compared it to the Royal Rumble. Some have even said that the format of AW is better than the Rumble. And my opinion is there are numerous shortfalls in this match that, if they existed in a WWE match, would have the same people going nuts.

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by CThrash13 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:32 pm

I wasn't really into last night's episode, although it's pretty damn tough to follow Fenix/Muertes and Aztec Warfare. Haha. The Trios Title match was pretty solid, but I'm definitely ready for things to get mixed up a little in that division. I understand having Matanza look unstoppable, but I sure would've preferred to see Pentagon Jr. look at least a little more credible. Matanza f'n smashed him any way you slice it.

The other two matches were pretty blah.

I'm interested to see what they do with Mysterio going forward. I'm guessing he isn't going to compete too often, but I'm excited to see his next step.

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by Garuda » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:47 pm

I like Matanza, but I'm not totally feeling the booking.

Sometimes, especially in film, a villain will be presented as utterly unstoppable. He'll be two steps ahead of the protagonists, and they'll absolutely eat shit upon their first couple encounters. Then there'll be a dark-night-of-the-soul moment in the late second act, and the protagonist will come back and kill the villain.

It's a fine formula, but often the villain will seem unbelievably strong, and then will lose pretty simply, just because it's the end of the movie and he has to lose. It's not a kiss of death, but it can turn the audience from perceiving a compelling foe into an arbitrary plot structure. You can see the strings.

There are way worse examples than Matanza, who's decent so far. But the way he's now destroyed Pentagon, and pretty much no-sold wrestling moves as a whole, I Just fear that when he eventually has to feel in peril or lose, it's going to feel arbitrary.

It's not bad that people were quiet when he trashed Pentagon; I think it was great when the crowd fell silent when Shingo Takagi bested all those veteran faces in Dragon Gate to disappointed silences. He's the heel. But if people see Matanza come out and groan because they know they're just filling out no-sold squash matches until the plot picks up again, they're in trouble. Dario Cueto will have to be working overtime to keep their monster interesting.

I'm not complaining because they haven't done it wrong yet. I just fear that they're booking Matanza in a way that's going to make this reign feel more like a storytelling chore than an interesting reign. I'm rooting for them.

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by Robareid » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:45 am

I'm with you, you can have a guy sell and still appear dominant. Here they've put Matanza too high on a pedestal where you've established moves don't hurt him but you know some point down the line they're going to have to and then things will just feel so inconsistent.

It's not dissimilar to how Ryback debuted. Established nothing could hurt him in a wrestling ring for the first six months and then all of a sudden he became a mortal like everybody else.

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by Chismo » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:18 pm

- Great opener with Dario and Pentagon.

- Another DUD from Lucha Underground females. Terrible match, terrible angle, terrible feud. The Moths introduction vignette was WOAT. Oh look, another debuting fighter beating up a bunch of masked thugs, never seen that before! Marty was decent in S1, but he's terrible in S2. Mariposa is an epic BUST.

- Mundo/Cage keeps on brewing, and Taya is great in her role.

- Good Trios Title match. I liked the post-match explanation from Dario to Catrina about why the DOD got their rematch.

- I loved main event the way they seem to be consistent with Matanza's booking. He's the monster who doesn't seem to be hurt by your usual Lucha Underground offense, and it's gonna take superhuman efforts to defeat him, and I'm totally okay with that. About damn time somebody put Pentagon to his place.

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by BoxingRobes » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:12 pm

The way they are booking Matanza, they are really getting put in a corner. You can't have this dude run through everyone no selling the fuck out of everyone, especially when they don't have anyone being built up to contend with him. He's now just going to run through LU's top guys and squash the fuck out of them...but then what? You can have him lose the title in a multi-man where another dude gets pinned or something...but right now, no one is losing to Matanza clean without him looking like a geek.

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by Chismo » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:16 am

He's not running through everyone, though. There's still Mil Muertes. He did pin 9 guys during Aztec Warfare, but half of those were undercard guys and a trainee (Mack, Aerostar, Ryan, Chavo, DAJ). And just because he smashed Fenix, Puma, Texano and Rey-Rey during a battle royal, doesn't mean he'll do the same to them in singles competition. Matanza destroying Pentagon is not a blueprint, because Pentagon is not a top guy. Maybe they debut a new super strong guy, who knows.

And maybe you're all right and I'm looking like a damn fool here typing all this shit not knowing Season 2 spoilers. :/

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by BoxingRobes » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:30 pm

After a great episode one...they have made Pentagon look like a total geek, tbh. He's not a top guy...but he should be.

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by Chismo » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:33 pm

Pentagon in Season 1 was dealing with prelim dudes, females and retired Canadian luchador-turned-announcer. Nothing too impressive to put in your CV, that's why the real main eventers would look bad if Pentagon suddenly ran through them.

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Re: The Lucha Underground Thread

Post by BoxingRobes » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:44 pm

Yeah, but they also built in a storyline that could be a prelude to a mega push when he was now under the tutelage of Vampiro. He comes out, breaks Mil's arm...BIG POP...automatically deemed a threat...then jobs out.

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