Ring of Honor (Discussion)

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thecubsfan
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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by thecubsfan » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:07 pm

just for the sake of being contrary, I'm going to defend ROH.

Adding Kaz to the Bullet Club makes some sense. We all assume Adam Cole is done in ROH sometime after WM weekend, which is about the time this thing is going to air, so the number of active members isn't going to increase for long. ROH was going to need another singles guy to replace him, and can't assume Cody or even Omega are going to be around enough to fill that role. (It could end up being Page, but then some one else has to be in Page's spot.) ROH Is going with Daniels as a top singles guy, so Kaz is going to be most useful as a heel challenger and could use being part of the top heel group to give him some credibility. There's too many Bullet Club people when you consider everyone in NJPW, but most of those guys are not in ROH much. ROH's in a spot where they can only consider what's best from them, and it'll only be the Bucks, Page and Kaz as full time Bullet Club people there, with the likes of GOD just filling out PPVs.

Kaz - or really anyone - joining the Bullet Club dilutes the concept, but the much bigger problem is *ROH appears to be building the company around 46 year old Christopher Daniels for at least the next several months*. That's diluting the concept of ROH itself. ROH's used to be about breaking the new great stars and now will be centered around - in storyline if not also in reality - a guy at the end of the line and barely hanging on. It's such a tonal shift that I'm not really sure what ROH is about at this point. It's also a really convenient metaphor for the state of things. Daniels is much better than he should be at his age, but Daniels on top in 2017 is like ROH running ROH reunion shows before they've gone out of business.

I don't think ROH is doing this to be malicious or because they don't get that adding more people to the Bullet Club is a bad nWo like thing. I think they're just so broken that they see this as one of the better available options. I know Dave's reporting on ROH is like the third rail of Wrestling Twitter, but suppose ROH really does believe it's problems are simply "there's no way we can compete with WWE on anyone they want" like he keeps saying. Going with Daniels & Kaz as a big feud makes sense with that mindset, they're too old for WWE to want. Cody & Colt make sense to use in a big way because they're unlikely to want to go to WWE. And, conversely, if you totally believe WWE can take who they want, maybe you don't invest in the guys you think WWE wants like Dijak because you'll lose them anyway.

Rich and Lanza went thru the ROH roster of guys who are good hands or far away from WWE and saw it as an issue. I think they're right, but maybe ROH sees that sort of roster makeup of solid hands and guys a long way from making to WWE as a positive, as a group of guys they can tell long term stories around without worrying about everyone leaving right after. It's defeatist and self fulfilling in a lot of ways, but that seems like ROH's current attitude.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by Joe Lanza » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:58 pm

thecubsfan wrote:just for the sake of being contrary, I'm going to defend ROH.

Adding Kaz to the Bullet Club makes some sense. We all assume Adam Cole is done in ROH sometime after WM weekend, which is about the time this thing is going to air, so the number of active members isn't going to increase for long. ROH was going to need another singles guy to replace him, and can't assume Cody or even Omega are going to be around enough to fill that role. (It could end up being Page, but then some one else has to be in Page's spot.) ROH Is going with Daniels as a top singles guy, so Kaz is going to be most useful as a heel challenger and could use being part of the top heel group to give him some credibility. There's too many Bullet Club people when you consider everyone in NJPW, but most of those guys are not in ROH much. ROH's in a spot where they can only consider what's best from them, and it'll only be the Bucks, Page and Kaz as full time Bullet Club people there, with the likes of GOD just filling out PPVs.

Kaz - or really anyone - joining the Bullet Club dilutes the concept, but the much bigger problem is *ROH appears to be building the company around 46 year old Christopher Daniels for at least the next several months*. That's diluting the concept of ROH itself. ROH's used to be about breaking the new great stars and now will be centered around - in storyline if not also in reality - a guy at the end of the line and barely hanging on. It's such a tonal shift that I'm not really sure what ROH is about at this point. It's also a really convenient metaphor for the state of things. Daniels is much better than he should be at his age, but Daniels on top in 2017 is like ROH running ROH reunion shows before they've gone out of business.

I don't think ROH is doing this to be malicious or because they don't get that adding more people to the Bullet Club is a bad nWo like thing. I think they're just so broken that they see this as one of the better available options. I know Dave's reporting on ROH is like the third rail of Wrestling Twitter, but suppose ROH really does believe it's problems are simply "there's no way we can compete with WWE on anyone they want" like he keeps saying. Going with Daniels & Kaz as a big feud makes sense with that mindset, they're too old for WWE to want. Cody & Colt make sense to use in a big way because they're unlikely to want to go to WWE. And, conversely, if you totally believe WWE can take who they want, maybe you don't invest in the guys you think WWE wants like Dijak because you'll lose them anyway.

Rich and Lanza went thru the ROH roster of guys who are good hands or far away from WWE and saw it as an issue. I think they're right, but maybe ROH sees that sort of roster makeup of solid hands and guys a long way from making to WWE as a positive, as a group of guys they can tell long term stories around without worrying about everyone leaving right after. It's defeatist and self fulfilling in a lot of ways, but that seems like ROH's current attitude.
Good post.

20 years ago, Paul Heyman tried to convince people that they didn't want to be in WWE or WCW.

10 years ago, ROH pushed some guys well enough to create legitimate money earning indie stars and created a culture of artistically satisfying wrestling to where some guys put off legitimate opportunities to move on (Danielson).

Ultimately, no matter what con or what angle you take, your most talented people are going to eventually take the money. The difference now compared to ROH a decade ago, is you have the power of contracts to lock people in. They could lock down people in their 20's who aren't interested in WWE at this point in their lives (Ospreay's current tact) or vice versa (ACH four years ago), lock them in for 2, 3, 5 years or whatever, and know exactly long they have to build money drawing story arcs.

The problem, is when they have guys like this, your ACH's and Lio Rush's and Donovan Dijak's and Kyle O'Reilly's and whoever else tickles your personal fancy as a potential real player, is that they never seem to have any sort of plan, and if that's obvious to Joe Lanza or thecubsfan or your average barricade slapper, then it's obvious to ACH and Lio Rush and Donovan Dijak and KOR.

When people feel like they are given legitimate opportunity and are being rewarded for working hard and getting over, it creates whatever level of loyalty that can reasonably exist with WWE looming over their shoulders.

I don't know what the fuck ROH is doing now, it may very be what you are saying in building around old dudes who aren't going anywhere (Kaz, Daniels), dudes WWE doesn't want (Colt, Briscoes), and dudes who aren't interested in WWE (Bucks, Cody R), but something tells me with how quickly some guys look around and figure out that they don't want to stick around (Keith Lee), that it's more of a case of not having a plan and maybe even the older guys knowing how to stroke the office more effectively.

Another issue is recruitment. The seminar route is starting to show its deficiencies when Gabe, who is really still their direct competitor in many ways, is plucking Sammy Guevara and the artists formerly known as Dev Corp and Ethan Page and Fred Yehi and whoever else tickles your fancy as a potential player off of the indie scene.

TL;DR - If choosing to not push younger wrestlers because you know they'll walk anyway is an actual strategy, then just blow the whole thing up.

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by achillesforever6 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:41 pm

I was at the ROH show last night; had a fun time got Marty's autograph and BOLA 2016 DVD set.

Pissed that they storyline canceled a match of the Tempura Boys vs MCMG so we could get heat on the fucking Rebellion; Dijak had a really good final match with ROH and went out strong against Marty.

There was a really annoying fan behind me shouting LAME and BITCH and END IT when guys he hated like Jay White were wrestling; I legit wanted to kick his ass and tell him to shut the fuck up.

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RobViper13
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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by RobViper13 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:43 pm

You can't overlook the fact Gabe gets guys to work obscenely cheap (OBSCENELY!) because he sells them on the fact he's the only guy that can get them into WWE & that is a legit selling point for many guys who see that as their destination. Whether that is wrestlers being dumb for believing that or Gabe doing a great Paul Heyman sell-job is an issue probably best debated elsewhere... but the fact is that goes through the mind of a wrestler when making a decision about their future. Work obscenely (OBSCENELY!) cheap for a guy who has a WWE connection or work cheap for a company that WWE isn't on good terms with & will want to lock you into a contract that could hurt you long term?

Joe's right, talented people are eventually going to take the money. But ROH has money. How they are using it seems to be the underlying issue.
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BackLash
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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by BackLash » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:32 am

I think this whole mess is frustrating, for anything to change in Ring of Honor it has to start at the top. If Sinclair or RoH isn't going to change how things are done in the front office, then nothing will change. For reasons that only the company understands, they are not addressing the very thing that is causing the likes of Elgin (aside from joint shows with New Japan), Dijak and Keith Lee to leave.

That said, there are still many young people looking to wrestle for the company and some of them could be their stars over time. But until then, their main event pool is thin. They have the two Jays (Lethal and Briscoe) and Adam Cole for now and maybe Daniels in the short term. Until they get their roster back to where they have a plethora of talented wrestlers to choose from, they have to use who they have and try their best to get who they do have over with fans.

Also adding Kaz to Bullet Club isn't ideal, but I don't blame RoH for capitalizing on the stable for more of their shows. Between Adam Cole potentially leaving and the limited availability of the New Japan guys (say nothing of Kenny's apathy towards the stable he kayfabe leads) they want to make sue they have enough members to cause trouble on their shows.

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BradPTBN
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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by BradPTBN » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:18 am

thecubsfan wrote: I don't think ROH is doing this to be malicious or because they don't get that adding more people to the Bullet Club is a bad nWo like thing. I think they're just so broken that they see this as one of the better available options. I know Dave's reporting on ROH is like the third rail of Wrestling Twitter, but suppose ROH really does believe it's problems are simply "there's no way we can compete with WWE on anyone they want" like he keeps saying. Going with Daniels & Kaz as a big feud makes sense with that mindset, they're too old for WWE to want. Cody & Colt make sense to use in a big way because they're unlikely to want to go to WWE. And, conversely, if you totally believe WWE can take who they want, maybe you don't invest in the guys you think WWE wants like Dijak because you'll lose them anyway.
Just a quick note, the TV that was taped is going to air in advance of the 15th Anniversary show. I don't think Daniels vs. Cole needed anything extra, the Bullet Club was already out-manning them, and honestly having Kaz fight alongside him as a face is way more interesting to me than now turning him.

When the Young Bucks signed their two year deal in December, Koff - in his Rolling Stone article - was pretty clear in his directive to be an alternative to WWE where guys could make solid money. So I don't see them resigned to a defeatist attitude. It was just a couple months ago that they scooped Scurll right from EVOLVE/WWN - and of course Ospreay. How they spend this money is completely questionable; by all accounts they are competitive on the market. Keith Lee's deal was the same $$.

And now to agree with Joe - guys are always ultimately going to go for the big money, and most all have a WWE dream. Guys like Roddy leaving or potentially soon Cole, those are guys that have worked hard for the company and move on to reach another goal. I never think of those as losses. Part of the business for ROH. But ROH clearly played scared with guys like Moose and Dijak as the market shifted (hence why they're looking for two year contracts now also). Moose outwardly expressing interest in WWE didn't help. They had stories and small pushes, but ultimately held back from a big belt or run. There's a bigger issue there too, which is their hierarchy around singles belts. And it's slow moving (see O'Reilly, Kyle), and a contrast to the WWE. But there are other ways for guys to be pushed than just winning titles; and they lacked making those compelling.

You have to show these guys the blueprint so they're compelled to see it through. Maybe that overcomes communication issues in the office. Guys like Dijak and Rush got spots on the London tour. O'Reilly got the main belt in hopes he'd stay and that didn't work. One guy where it seems they're operating differently is Marty Scurll. He could opt out, but he's been heavily pushed regardless of that fact with episodes of TV built around him (both in cilps/matches promoting his arrival, and then in 2017 TV tapings). It seems like they're out in front of him, compared to the backstage sentiment of Delrious' where he just thinks things will come together late and ultimately be fine. A horrible management philosophy that no one successful ever implemented.

ROH and EVOLVE are kind of after the same pool, but Gabe is booking a weekend of shows a month, whereas ROH's talent is doing TV tapings plus house shows. No one just works EVOLVE, whereas ROH is a wrestling company with fulltime exclusive guys. While I think they clearly could have a better eye for buzzing talent, I don't hold it against them for running camps and vetting out people that way. I certainly give Gabe credit for outselling ROH on the WWE link and getting away with paying shit too.

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Jacob's Bawks
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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by Jacob's Bawks » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:26 am

I dunno what I'm doing but come follow me on Twitter @Jacobs_Bawks


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Buzz Sawyer
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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by Buzz Sawyer » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:27 pm

What does Bullet Club even add to ROH at this point? The smarks know it's beyond pathetic at this point and should be able to see right through it. The cards itself look weak and the roster as a whole is really paper thin. Unless you really love ROH, what incentive is it for a fan to go to a show these days? If Kaz or Adam Page are going to be one of your top heels going forward, then your company is in trouble.
Who's Rob Viper ?

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by DXvsNWO » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:15 pm

rovert wrote:Weird upload. This guy:



versus ROH dojo's answer to Freight Train:

Don't ever mention QT on Twitter. He's a Grade A vanity searcher.
Image

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BackLash
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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by BackLash » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:29 pm

Buzz Sawyer wrote:What does Bullet Club even add to ROH at this point? The smarks know it's beyond pathetic at this point and should be able to see right through it. The cards itself look weak and the roster as a whole is really paper thin. Unless you really love ROH, what incentive is it for a fan to go to a show these days? If Kaz or Adam Page are going to be one of your top heels going forward, then your company is in trouble.
Them being the top heels really would only be temporary. Still, I'd like to see them do other things and just be a generic heels or henchmen moving forward to see if they can't expand be on that role. For Adam Page, Gedo sees something in him, to be fair I don't know what that is either. If he does become the top heel, he might actually show what he's really capable of. It's better than his entire time in the freaking Decade anyway. Kazarian is one of the founders of X-Division and so give him time. he'll probably be pretty good in the main event spot. Really the only things holding him back are his mic skills and his age.

Also the Bullet Club really won't go away until it stops being profitable for Ring of Honor and New Japan. Despite them being more pro wrestling than sports entertainment, they are still businesses. It's all about the money in the long run.
Last edited by BackLash on Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by DETROIT_KEJB » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:39 pm

Dummies still get excited every time the BC music hits. I see it at every show. ROH is kind of shit but it's still something to do. It's basically WWE at this point, in the sense that it is kind of engrained and kind of just a night out.

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by mlev76 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:30 pm

RobViper13 wrote:But ROH has money. How they are using it seems to be the underlying issue.
And herein lies the biggest problem as I see it. Right now, ROH is in a position where they are in absolutely no danger of ever going away while also remaining a low priority for SBG. So, what is the motivation for those in charge to scour the indies and international markets for new talent? The ROH of yesteryear is clearly a different company than what exists now even if the former model has not been fully dismantled. The Top Prospect tournament gives the impression that they still care about that, but realistically, they don't.

Since 2014, they've coasted on their New Japan connection and done seemingly well. But, the young talent who can be the backbone of the company when New Japan inevitably chooses to move on from the relationship is not being groomed as they should and they are relying far too much on loyalists who are still good, but are no longer the exciting, new stars that drove the company for years.

If I were in their shoes, I would put the belt on Daniels and pick a young star and build to him beating Daniels. Hell, if the Bullet Club is going to be the top act, either make a deal to have Omega be that guy or build Page up to that point. Have SOME direction with someone.

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Jacob's Bawks
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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by Jacob's Bawks » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:45 pm

They just announced The Kingdom Reformed in Matt Taven's Image against Silas Young, The Beer City Bruiser, and a mystery opponent for Supercard of Honor.

*laughtrack plays*
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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by Danwaka » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:58 pm

Genuinely forgot that Taven and Young still worked for ROH.

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