Evolve (WWNLive)

WWE, TNA, and all U.S./Canada based graps talk
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rovert
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by rovert » Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:09 pm

He's working AAW September 18th. Wait and see I guess.

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BillThompson
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by BillThompson » Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:00 pm

InYourCase wrote:
SammyJ_D wrote:Honestly, is Gargano one of the top five people that gets people to pay for EVOLVE in 2015?
I would assume more people pay to see Gargano than Thatcher (and I'm not joking)
It's probably more evenly distributed, or as I think is the case with EVOLVE, people are paying to see indie wrestling, not necessarily anyone on the card. At least that's the vibe I get from the live audiences.

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van Fair
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by van Fair » Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:03 pm

Also comparing gates in Evolve is rather useless, since they rarely draw a lot of people. It would be more interesting to know if the buy rates of their shows, either live stream or VOD, has gone up since Thatcher became a focal point of the promotion.
It's a dilapidated boat! - Matt Hardy 2016

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DXvsNWO
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by DXvsNWO » Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:23 pm

Image

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rovert
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by rovert » Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:55 pm

Gargano has more social media followers than Thatcher.

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SammyJ_D
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by SammyJ_D » Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:56 pm

Damn it all. Damn it all to hell.

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Hollaplaya
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by Hollaplaya » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:55 am

So the outcome of Gargano's match tonight, storyline progression or writing him out of Evolve?

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Wind-Up Soup
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by Wind-Up Soup » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:57 am

It was so damn hot in that building tonight, that it was hard to focus on anything. The Page/Swann/Gargano stuff is very flat to me.

Hero's rolling elbow on Gulak with the ice pack was insane.

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Chismo
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by Chismo » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:49 am

Hollaplaya wrote:So the outcome of Gargano's match tonight, storyline progression or writing him out of Evolve?
I really, really, REALLY hope it's the latter.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by Joe Lanza » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:25 am

I have zero interest in EVOLVE's grapplefuck direction, but Gargano, Swann, and any other holdovers from the Ricochet/Del Sol/Sami era probably need to go. They aren't a fit anymore, and I do believe the grapplefuck direction is the correct one even though i'd rather watch paint dry. EVOLVE needed a facelift, so they should go all the way with it.

With that said, personally I think there is a serious lack of upside to the "Thatcher era". Far too niche, even for a niche of a niche. It may be the style du jour of the moment but it never draws anywhere and never will. It will forever be relegated to CZW's garage shows, those weird BEYOND events held in front of other workers, and EVOLVE shows with 19 people in attendance who never pop for anything because they style is devoid of highspots. It's a style that doesn't draw fans, and garners zero heat aside from polite clapping when the match is over. I think the style might end up evolving into these guys eventually drifting away from the mat based stuff to something closer to stiff shoot style striking, which will have wider appeal than watching guys do the "look how artful we are" sim grappling. Thatcher, Hero, Busick, all of these guys are more compelling when they're on their feet showing fire and throwing forearms at each others heads. Save the masturbatory shit for those Beyond shows without fans where the other workers can give you back pats for bjj transitions that go over most fans heads.

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JoJo
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by JoJo » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:17 pm

The more time Thatcher spends hanging out with Yuki Ishiakwa, the better. Ishikawa had a similar style, but with tons of fire/emotion and more strikes. Thatcher is at his best when paired with guys that have a diverse/striking-based style.

Hero's having an amazing year and will likely stay near the top of the company for the foreseeable future. He's a great fit to pair with the mat-based guys because he can go on the mat, but obviously doesn't rely solely on it.

Hopefully Evolve can keep booking elite, similarly skilled guys like Sabre and TJP to keep the matches fresh and interesting.

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mancraig
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by mancraig » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:56 pm

I was in attendance at Evolve 47 in Queens on Saturday and can attest to this. Many of the fans were screaming things like "when does the main event start" and "boring" during the Thatcher vs. Sabre Jr. Main Event, but by the end of the match they were giving the guys a standing ovation.

The style is very niche, and does work much better when strikes are involved. I thought the thatcher vs. Busick match from Evolve 48 was a great example of this. Personally I love Thatcher and very much enjoy his matches and approach to wrestling, but would I want to watch these more than once or twice every 2-3 months when Evolve runs shows? No.

Say what you want about it, but this is now Evolve's identity which they have been sorely lacking in recent years, and I for one am happy they have found it.

Joe Lanza wrote:I have zero interest in EVOLVE's grapplefuck direction, but Gargano, Swann, and any other holdovers from the Ricochet/Del Sol/Sami era probably need to go. They aren't a fit anymore, and I do believe the grapplefuck direction is the correct one even though i'd rather watch paint dry. EVOLVE needed a facelift, so they should go all the way with it.

With that said, personally I think there is a serious lack of upside to the "Thatcher era". Far too niche, even for a niche of a niche. It may be the style du jour of the moment but it never draws anywhere and never will. It will forever be relegated to CZW's garage shows, those weird BEYOND events held in front of other workers, and EVOLVE shows with 19 people in attendance who never pop for anything because they style is devoid of highspots. It's a style that doesn't draw fans, and garners zero heat aside from polite clapping when the match is over. I think the style might end up evolving into these guys eventually drifting away from the mat based stuff to something closer to stiff shoot style striking, which will have wider appeal than watching guys do the "look how artful we are" sim grappling. Thatcher, Hero, Busick, all of these guys are more compelling when they're on their feet showing fire and throwing forearms at each others heads. Save the masturbatory shit for those Beyond shows without fans where the other workers can give you back pats for bjj transitions that go over most fans heads.

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JoJo
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by JoJo » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:22 pm

mancraig wrote: Personally I love Thatcher and very much enjoy his matches and approach to wrestling, but would I want to watch these more than once or twice every 2-3 months when Evolve runs shows? No.
Agreed. Less is more when it comes to the number of shows and matches per show in this style.

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BillThompson
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by BillThompson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:11 pm

You know where I sand, I love the style, could watch it all day, and am happy EVOLVE has moved in this direction.

I also think the "No heat, only golf claps" narrative is both ignoring the reactions that do come about and the end reactions that the match engenders. A match doesn't need to be a series of highspots that the crowd pops for in order for the crowd to have enjoyed a match and have been hot for a match. Was talking about this with a friend the other day and he brought up a point Meltzer made about the style, which is that it's about drawing interest to a conclusion that the fans show investment in, The crowds aren't as vocal or as loud as they are for other matches, but they are paying attention to the match and show by their end of the match reactions that they appreciate what they have seen and really liked it. I agree with Meltzer here, and in the general sense a lot of people are missing the forest for the trees when it comes to how crowds are reacting to the grapple style matches. I mean, were the guys pulling out highspots galore and all theyw ere getting were golf claps, then there'd be a problem.

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BoxingRobes
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Re: Evolve 2015

Post by BoxingRobes » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:00 am

Joe Lanza wrote:I have zero interest in EVOLVE's grapplefuck direction, but Gargano, Swann, and any other holdovers from the Ricochet/Del Sol/Sami era probably need to go. They aren't a fit anymore, and I do believe the grapplefuck direction is the correct one even though i'd rather watch paint dry. EVOLVE needed a facelift, so they should go all the way with it.

With that said, personally I think there is a serious lack of upside to the "Thatcher era". Far too niche, even for a niche of a niche. It may be the style du jour of the moment but it never draws anywhere and never will. It will forever be relegated to CZW's garage shows, those weird BEYOND events held in front of other workers, and EVOLVE shows with 19 people in attendance who never pop for anything because they style is devoid of highspots. It's a style that doesn't draw fans, and garners zero heat aside from polite clapping when the match is over. I think the style might end up evolving into these guys eventually drifting away from the mat based stuff to something closer to stiff shoot style striking, which will have wider appeal than watching guys do the "look how artful we are" sim grappling. Thatcher, Hero, Busick, all of these guys are more compelling when they're on their feet showing fire and throwing forearms at each others heads. Save the masturbatory shit for those Beyond shows without fans where the other workers can give you back pats for bjj transitions that go over most fans heads.
My only qualm with this post is the idea of the holdovers going away...the #grapplefuck style when its just Thatcher, Gulak, Hero, and Hot Sauce jerking each other off is mind numbing...the only redeeming quality to this style is when they have someone in there that can work a bit of a different style. Most of the time, it comes off as clunky and bad, but occasionally, it'll come together for something decent. Plus, it can only help these guys evolve the style from the stuff they produce now, that was last seen under the big top with Earl Caddock and Joe Stecher.

I second the notion by all those that state this is NOT something that will ever draw. Most fans do not care. Its not an interactive style at all. Its Art Haus wrestling. People pop for flipz because watching people do ridiculous things has always been a draw...in wrestling, real sports, or otherwise.

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