F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

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supersonic
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by supersonic » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:20 pm


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Ferrante207
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Ferrante207 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:08 am

I have been a WON subscriber for 2 months and I love the podcasts and reading the old observers. I have an office cube monkey job where I jam podcasts all day.

Never been on The Board, but Bix and Zellner always talk about it like some 4 chan fever swamp, so I've avoided it.

I enjoy this board because it's intimate enough that I know a lot of the posters, their likes/dislikes, and overall tastes. Knowing someone's bias/interests helps provide context in their posts. The flagship also acts as a through line for message board discussion. Grounds it in something generative.

I also think the level of maturity is very high for a message board. As someone who came up on the b9 hardcore message board, this place is super civil in comparison. Even me and trev are cool now after butting heads a bit. He's even altered my view on a few things, which is how we grow as fans.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by powerfulmgp » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:00 am

I'm a 'normal' guy with a family, a job, and a few different hobbies. I also regularly post in the MPI and New Pics GTFO sections of the board. A number of other members who i've met through the site and become shoot friends with fall into that category as well. It's not all shut-ins and weirdos. Just shooting the breeze and having a laugh during some downtime.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by supersonic » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:35 am



I believe she quit contributing here due to her overall disappointment in how females and other parties are generally treated by wrestling communities. I'm sure Joe and Rich would agree that her input is missed.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by suplexberry » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:49 am

My 2 cents.

A woman said she felt gross and alienated by it. Regardless of whether you visit or are okay with the forum, the bigger point is the alienation that is very real and true. It doesn't matter if you agree with it, it exists, but if you're smart about it, you'll agree it's really bad business strategy. You (unconsciously/consciously, whichever) tell half the world's population they're not wanted/needed here and you lose them as a customer.

I would guess Dave doesn't know/care/realize. This is the same dude who on Twitter makes sly comments about Japanese female audience members' attractiveness when compared to American womens' attractiveness. Because women can't even fucking attend a wrestling show without being rated by "the best wrestling journalist on the planet".

This ties into people always asking why Japanese shows seem to have such a 50/50 gender split in the audience. It's because Japanese promotions, for the most part, did not spend 20-30 years of their existence actively alienating women and girls in the audience (which is what WWE did). It's not radically progressive. It's smart.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by supersonic » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:28 am

I've never noticed Dave commenting about a mark's cosmetics. Mind sharing examples?

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by suplexberry » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:42 am

It was a tweet from like 3-5 months ago. Needle in a haystack. Didn't save the link and google is not turning up anything. Sorry.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by ayaashm » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:26 am

suplexberry wrote: This ties into people always asking why Japanese shows seem to have such a 50/50 gender split in the audience. It's because Japanese promotions, for the most part, did not spend 20-30 years of their existence actively alienating women and girls in the audience (which is what WWE did). It's not radically progressive. It's smart.

this is a great point. Additionally, there are certain promotions that actively target the female audience i.e DDT,DG.
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by DezWalker » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:15 pm

powerfulmgp wrote:I'm a 'normal' guy with a family, a job, and a few different hobbies. I also regularly post in the MPI and New Pics GTFO sections of the board. A number of other members who i've met through the site and become shoot friends with fall into that category as well. It's not all shut-ins and weirdos. Just shooting the breeze and having a laugh during some downtime.
I echo this post nearly 100%

Not going to say any more than that at this moment

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Brandon Howard » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:37 pm

suplexberry wrote:My 2 cents.

A woman said she felt gross and alienated by it. Regardless of whether you visit or are okay with the forum, the bigger point is the alienation that is very real and true. It doesn't matter if you agree with it, it exists, but if you're smart about it, you'll agree it's really bad business strategy. You (unconsciously/consciously, whichever) tell half the world's population they're not wanted/needed here and you lose them as a customer.

I would guess Dave doesn't know/care/realize. This is the same dude who on Twitter makes sly comments about Japanese female audience members' attractiveness when compared to American womens' attractiveness. Because women can't even fucking attend a wrestling show without being rated by "the best wrestling journalist on the planet".

This ties into people always asking why Japanese shows seem to have such a 50/50 gender split in the audience. It's because Japanese promotions, for the most part, did not spend 20-30 years of their existence actively alienating women and girls in the audience (which is what WWE did). It's not radically progressive. It's smart.
This runs so deep and is pervasive and a determent to wrestling on all levels: media sites, indies, WWE.

On the low level indies, as recently as this past weekend, I still hear young wrestlers who are trying to adopt the existing wrestling culture, talking about female fans being "rats". Imagine going to an indie show and having people think the main reason you're there is to try to have sex. As in, if you're a woman, it's inconceivable that your fandom can be genuine.

We can see from the example in Japan that wrestling isn't inherently something that appeals almost exclusively to males; we've simply fostered a culture that's made it that way.

Intentional or not, Dave and Bryan are complicit in reinforcing that non-inclusive and misogynistic culture. They allow the board they own to be what it is. They poorly-handle news relevant to this issue, like the Honma domestic violence story, the Ashley Massaro sexual assault story, Dave's misunderstanding of Raw's demographics (arguing the increase in female viewership is only due to a decrease in male viewership, meanwhile there's been an attrition of viewership overall). As by far the most influential wrestling media site in the world, they have a special ability to make wrestling culture better in this way, and they repeatedly fail to.

Wrestling can do much better. As the post above says, it would even be better for business.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Hobbes » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:42 pm

Message boards have two ways where they can work: The first is a complete wild west where there are basically no rules other than the actual laws of society. They're often full of horrible people but sometimes some real good comedy and friendships can be bred in places like that, and I think a lot of us went through a phase when they were part of a board like that for some topic.

The second kind of forum that can work is heavily moderated and heavily curated. Ultra selective of who gets in and what can be talked about.

F4W's problem is it's kind of in this weird middle ground. It once was fairly close to the wild west, but believe it or not, while in some ways that forum has deteriorated, in some ways it's actually more moderated and presentable than it once was. Even the pics forum, last I checked, now exists in some kind of weird nether realm where people leer over porn stars but are only allowed to post clothed pictures of them, which sounds like a compromise that pleases no one on either side. But unfortunately when you go in the middle like that, you don't please a lot of people in general. There's enough dismissive abuse and crap to turn one group off, but there's still enough rules in places to turn another group off.

There's a bunch of good people on the F4W forum that barely post. I post mostly in one thread, and one time when I had a personal issue happen and had to stop posting for a few weeks, people worried about me to the point where I had to make a message explaining my absence, and now whenever I have an issue like that, I feel obligated to make some mention of it. People I didn't even know exited, let alone read my posts, have gone out of their way to PM me and send me well wishes. I've also had people who have been complete dicks to me, but it's a lot tamer than places I was a part of in my adolescence.

Also, where else am I going to go to find out that I'm a cuck?

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Ferrante207 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:20 pm

I know that Dave is the paper of record and a arbiter of wrestling culture, but I believe it's a slippery slope to expect him to be some sort of Christ-like figure that must atone for all the sins of the graps community. The self-policing really seems to work better a la the entire graps twitter rallying around Styles' comments.

Also not sure it'd be a good biz idea for melty to get more woke. The mouthbreathers need somewhere to mouthbreath and their money spends just fine. A smart move would be Wade positioning himself as the anti-melty and really cranking up the SJW aspects of his coverage.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Brandon Howard » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:20 pm

Ferrante207 wrote:I know that Dave is the paper of record and a arbiter of wrestling culture, but I believe it's a slippery slope to expect him to be some sort of Christ-like figure that must atone for all the sins of the graps community.
No one's expecting this, only for rationality and decency.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Ferrante207 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:42 pm

Brandon Howard wrote:
Ferrante207 wrote:I know that Dave is the paper of record and a arbiter of wrestling culture, but I believe it's a slippery slope to expect him to be some sort of Christ-like figure that must atone for all the sins of the graps community.
No one's expecting this, only for rationality and decency.
In my two months as a WON subscriber I've encountered nothing but decency and rational thought from Dave in his podcasting and writing. I've never been to the board, though.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by powerfulmgp » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:44 pm

Brandon Howard wrote:
Ferrante207 wrote:I know that Dave is the paper of record and a arbiter of wrestling culture, but I believe it's a slippery slope to expect him to be some sort of Christ-like figure that must atone for all the sins of the graps community.
No one's expecting this, only for rationality and decency.
I must be reading a different Newsletter than you. Dave has his personal preferences and I may not always agree with him, but lacking rationality and decency is quite the accusation.
Last edited by powerfulmgp on Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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