"Why NXT May Be a Long-Term Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

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supersonic
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"Why NXT May Be a Long-Term Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by supersonic » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:13 am

http://www.cubedcirclewrestling.com/blo ... long-term/

A *TREMENDOUS* piece of caution as WWE is about to have its likely best of the year, in addition to its biggest show of the year on the same weekend.

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TGD287
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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by TGD287 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:38 am

I think it's a real stretch to say that "over-fishing" indie talent is an actual concern in the future.

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ajdb
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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by ajdb » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:53 am

This article does not address the fact that WWE has signed far more unknown talent and people who are trying to become wrestlers for the first time.

This article smacks of "let me write something counter to popular opinion for clicks" or "let me write something that sounds prophetic for clicks"

The reality is there are what 75-80 people at the Performance Center? I don't think there's that many slots on the main roster. So where do they go if they don't make it? They filter back out into the independents or other countries (see Juice Robinson).

I really don't see much point in this article. Just another attempt to ruin the good parts of wrestling for everyone else.

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Hollaplaya
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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by Hollaplaya » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:36 am

I also don't see how this makes WWE the bad guys. What they are doing is just business. You can't talk about New Japan being the victims, especially when they have been making noises about wanting to be world wide competition for awhile now. They put themselves on the WWE radar here.

Like these other companies wouldn't love to put a dent in WWE as much as WWE would love to take them down? I think this may also be a case of take them down before they take you down. You gonna tell me that the purpose of these other companies is not to try to get people to want to leave WWE? I think we've already seen this develope in recent years with the likes of Del Rio, Rey and also Wade Barrett in the coming months. Again, this is all business.

Thinking about this more, it's not like this is something WWE hasn't done since going national in the 80's. This has been going on for awhile where they sign talent and want to target other companies. I think it feels like they are more active since there are more options now with a stronger New Japan and ROH, Lucha Underground, TNA and the Indies. I remember when they first signed CM Punk. The story at the time was that TNA was interested and talent relations was given a memo telling them to go after anybody who TNA had interest in. This was when they were about to go to Spike. They also wanted to sign Samoa Joe, but he chose TNA. This is also not the first time they have targeted ROH. When they signed Daniel Bryan and almost signed Nigel the story at the time was they wanted to do a big raid on ROH due to their HD Net show having a Monday night time slot. So this stuff is not something that has just developed in the last year.

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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by Chismo » Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:08 am

It's not Levesque's fault New Japan doesn't do multi-year contracts, not even with their top stars. It's not Levesque's fault almost entire indie/alter scene's got the Stockholm Syndrome on him. Especially the pro-wrestling media. I legit think Gabe Sapolsky has wet dreams about HHH. You think your precious #BigMike would ever get a 2-yr deal if not for Nakamura and Bullet Club departures biting them in the ass REAL hard? Same with Okada and his 5-yr deal.

It's pro-wrestling, you cut throats or you're gone. Or worse, you become irrelevant.

Apparently doing good business is bad for business all of sudden. Wat? And I'm not even an NXT fan, far from it.

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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by mlev76 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:52 am

Couple things here:

1) Starting the article off by framing HHH the promoter by bringing up acts of him as a performer give the article an air of 'conspiracy theory' that really never gets shaken throughout. I get trying to explain who he was throughout the 2000s, but I don't see any of that necessarily affecting how NXT is run.

2) The rate of signing independent talent is actually relatively moderate all things considered. And rather than decimate other companies, it has been used by some as a leverage to get better deals with other companies and as an opportunity to fill open spots for others. It also happens that there are more places where wrestlers can make an ok living (maybe not great money) today than there were at the start of the decade.

3) No, NXT is not a traditional developmental. So what? Prior to the late 90s/early 2000s, WWE didn't have a developmental because they didn't need one. And while they do need one today, mixing proven wrestlers with newbies could be a good formula going forward.

4) To be truthful, many independent companies have piggybacked on WWE for many years. Is it really that unfair that WWE turns around and does the same?

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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by Shining Wiz » Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:04 pm

First, I don't mean this to sound like I'm shitting on this guy's article. I think it at least raises some decent points.

However, two points.

First, I read better writing than this on the VOW site nearly every time an article is posted. Again, I don't mean to shit on the article, but there's some issues with the prose that could use a good edit. Which by no means is an insult. The author clearly took a fair bit of time crafting the article, but that sometimes makes editing it much harder.

Second, I'm shocked by the amount praise this article got on the twitter over the weekend. I mean - nothing in there is earth shattering idea wise, though it did seem to spur some interesting conversations. The near universal praise may point to how few full articles the wrestling intelligentsia actually spend their time reading.

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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by H.U.S.T.L.E. » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:54 pm

I saw this floating around over the weekend and still haven't had a chance to read it in full, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

This feels a lot like the "WWE is going to kill the indies!" narrative that goes around on the net, only crafted more eloquently. As Joe & Rich often say on the flagship podcast, every time a guy is signed by WWE there are dozens (if not hundreds) of guys ready to step up and fill their place on the indies.

While WWE/NXT might be signing guys a rapid pace right now, they'll eventually get to a point where it doesn't make much sense to keep that rate up. Even with NXT as a touring brand, there's still a limited number of slots to fill.

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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by TGD287 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Listing to Talking Sheet, where I first noticed the praise for it, I just disagree with all of the points (edit: points in the podcast). And the article looks at NXT targeting the ROH schedule for their national touring which I don't disagree with, but to cite the NXT UK tour on the sale week of Final Battle in New York, and a NXT Florida house show (edit: which happens every weekend) vs. ROH finally visiting the state is pathetically desperate.
Last edited by TGD287 on Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by Ryan Clingman » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:27 pm

Shining Wiz wrote:First, I don't mean this to sound like I'm shitting on this guy's article. I think it at least raises some decent points.

However, two points.

First, I read better writing than this on the VOW site nearly every time an article is posted. Again, I don't mean to shit on the article, but there's some issues with the prose that could use a good edit. Which by no means is an insult. The author clearly took a fair bit of time crafting the article, but that sometimes makes editing it much harder.

Second, I'm shocked by the amount praise this article got on the twitter over the weekend. I mean - nothing in there is earth shattering idea wise, though it did seem to spur some interesting conversations. The near universal praise may point to how few full articles the wrestling intelligentsia actually spend their time reading.
I am the author of the article and am going to attempt to address everything as best I can in this thread and in others. My intention is not to "bump" this thread by means of spamming it with trivial post responses -- I will attempt to keep the number of my posts to a minimum.

Firstly, I am very interested to read Shining Wiz' criticisms of the writing itself, either via DM, email, or here on the forum (although, I doubt that many others would be interested). I am the editor of the site and newsletter, and so very rarely get a secondary perspective on my writing.

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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by Drew Wardlaw » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:33 pm

Interesting article. I'm not sure how much I agree with it and like Shining Wiz says, there's definitely a conspiratorial tone throughout that I think does a disservice to the piece. A couple things though...

I do think it's worth noting that the NJ "talent raid" is a big dea and seems to be getting underplayed in the responses I've read around. Something like this hasn't really happened before, to my knowledge, at least on this scale. But at the same time, there's never been a foreign company that was the direct competition for WWE either.

I think it's a kneejerk reaction for people who watched the territories go under and WCW close to be skeptical when wwe seems to be making moves and running against companies. We are just now getting to the point, for the first time in this century really, where wrestlers have options so it is concerning, given the companies track record with competition, to see some of the same tactics used that ultimately led to wwe being the only game in town.

Overall, I'm not sure any of that is a bad thing though. Other companies will have to change their business practices now, we've already seen it with New Japan, and it could be very good for wrestling as a whole. Everyone is on the radar now so they won't be able to get by with complacency anymore, which is good.

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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by Shining Wiz » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:40 pm

Ryan Clingman wrote:
Shining Wiz wrote:First, I don't mean this to sound like I'm shitting on this guy's article. I think it at least raises some decent points.

However, two points.

First, I read better writing than this on the VOW site nearly every time an article is posted. Again, I don't mean to shit on the article, but there's some issues with the prose that could use a good edit. Which by no means is an insult. The author clearly took a fair bit of time crafting the article, but that sometimes makes editing it much harder.

Second, I'm shocked by the amount praise this article got on the twitter over the weekend. I mean - nothing in there is earth shattering idea wise, though it did seem to spur some interesting conversations. The near universal praise may point to how few full articles the wrestling intelligentsia actually spend their time reading.
I am the author of the article and am going to attempt to address everything as best I can in this thread and in others. My intention is not to "bump" this thread by means of spamming it with trivial post responses -- I will attempt to keep the number of my posts to a minimum.

Firstly, I am very interested to read Shining Wiz' criticisms of the writing itself, either via DM, email, or here on the forum (although, I doubt that many others would be interested). I am the editor of the site and newsletter, and so very rarely get a secondary perspective on my writing.
Again, I'd like to reiterate that I am by no means trying to shit on you. You obviously put a lot of thought and effort into the article, for which I commend you. And, picky style/editing stuff aside, your main point is pretty clear and, even if I don't necessarily agree with it, it created some genuinely interesting discussions. So, that's a great outcome of an article.

And when I say I read better writing on VOW regularly, that should in no way be taken as an insult. The writers here are quite good. My comment was more in confusion as to how your article caught the fancy of so many.

As for the issues I have with the structure I'll hit you up with a dm.

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Hollaplaya
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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by Hollaplaya » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:37 pm

mlev76 wrote:Couple things here:

1) Starting the article off by framing HHH the promoter by bringing up acts of him as a performer give the article an air of 'conspiracy theory' that really never gets shaken throughout. I get trying to explain who he was throughout the 2000s, but I don't see any of that necessarily affecting how NXT is run.

2) The rate of signing independent talent is actually relatively moderate all things considered. And rather than decimate other companies, it has been used by some as a leverage to get better deals with other companies and as an opportunity to fill open spots for others. It also happens that there are more places where wrestlers can make an ok living (maybe not great money) today than there were at the start of the decade.

3) No, NXT is not a traditional developmental. So what? Prior to the late 90s/early 2000s, WWE didn't have a developmental because they didn't need one. And while they do need one today, mixing proven wrestlers with newbies could be a good formula going forward.

4) To be truthful, many independent companies have piggybacked on WWE for many years. Is it really that unfair that WWE turns around and does the same?
I agree with point 2. I think WWE's raid is kind of overstated. Yeah they got the New Japan names, but besides that who else have they signed in recent months? Aries is the only name and that was several months after he finished with TNA.

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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by Ryan Clingman » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:51 pm

TGD287 wrote:Listing to Talking Sheet, where I first noticed the praise for it, I just disagree with all of the points (edit: points in the podcast). And the article looks at NXT targeting the ROH schedule for their national touring which I don't disagree with, but to cite the NXT UK tour on the sale week of Final Battle in New York, and a NXT Florida house show (edit: which happens every weekend) vs. ROH finally visiting the state is pathetically desperate.
You are entirely correct about the Florida house show. This isn't a very good excuse, but as a non-American, it is easy to forget about the vast distances involved. I made the same mistake with the Chicago NXT show and another Ring of Honor show in Illinois. The Final Battle example was listed simply to give an example of possible competition outside of the realm of house shows and TV tapings – I stand by it.

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Re: "Why NXT May Be a Long-Term] Detriment For Pro Wrestling"

Post by Ryan Clingman » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:00 pm

ajdb wrote:This article does not address the fact that WWE has signed far more unknown talent and people who are trying to become wrestlers for the first time.

This article smacks of "let me write something counter to popular opinion for clicks" or "let me write something that sounds prophetic for clicks"

The reality is there are what 75-80 people at the Performance Center? I don't think there's that many slots on the main roster. So where do they go if they don't make it? They filter back out into the independents or other countries (see Juice Robinson).

I really don't see much point in this article. Just another attempt to ruin the good parts of wrestling for everyone else.
WWE's amateur sports and unknown talent signings should have been addressed, and is a possible topic for a future article most definitely.

I find your “this person expressed a minority opinion, therefore they are clearly writing purely for clicks” statement a completely unjustified one. Every sentence in that article is something that I honestly believe. I have many opinions that fall directly inline with the general consensus, others that deviate completely. This was a topic that I thought deserved consideration, and so I decided to write an article – simple as that.

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