King's Road - The All Japan Thread

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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by ayaashm » Tue May 17, 2016 1:54 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:To me the guy who gets short changed historically is Akiyama. He was great literally immediately, and is still great today some 25 years later. I think it's easier to make a case that Akiyama is better than the three hyped pillars than Taue.

Absolutely agree with you. Akiyama's work over two decades speaks for itself. Comparing that to Taue, I mean Taue is good but Akiyama should have been the fourth pillar if it was possible. Even today, you see Akiyama and you just realise that this man may not be able to do what he used to do a decade or two ago but my god, this guy is so smooth, so polished and his movement in the ring and how his stuff looks gritty and nasty when it needs to and these days playing the dick veteran to young guys has been Akiyama at another level.
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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by ayaashm » Tue May 17, 2016 1:56 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:Taue being better than the other three pillars is a new thing that cropped up over the last couple of years. Nobody was saying that in real time, so it strikes me as one of those things were people are just tired of hearing the same regurgitated boring opinions for 20 years and have latched on to a new hot take.

I like Taue just fine. The other three blow him out of the water. They were so good, that this shouldn't even be read as an insult.

Yea please read Dave's newsletters at his peak and see how he is percieved and spoken of during that time. If people want I'll upload Taue only sections from Observer and Dave's comments on him as recent as a mailbag question he answered and said that he was considered not smooth or polished at all.
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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Tue May 17, 2016 2:04 pm

Taue's rep at the time was that he was uncoordinated and a little sloppy. His insider nickname was Two Left Feet, ffs. Now, I think some of that worked for his character, and I do think he fit his role perfectly. I consider him an all timer, but not an elite Top 10 level all timer like the other three. When I was loosely constructing my Top 100 for the GWE thing (which I ended up not submitting) he was a guy I was trying to find room for.

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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by ayaashm » Tue May 17, 2016 2:11 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:Taue's rep at the time was that he was uncoordinated and a little sloppy. His insider nickname was Two Left Feet, ffs. Now, I think some of that worked for his character, and I do think he fit his role perfectly. I consider him an all timer, but not an elite Top 10 level all timer like the other three. When I was loosely constructing my Top 100 for the GWE thing (which I ended up not submitting) he was a guy I was trying to find room for.
I mean his chokeslam looked like a shoot chokeslam. He was amazing in tags with Kawada tho.
On a side note, just finished watching Tozawa vs. Eita from King of Gate Day 2. I thought it was 4 and 3/4. Please find some time to watch it. They told a great story.
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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by PKThree » Tue May 17, 2016 4:41 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:To me the guy who gets short changed historically is Akiyama. He was great literally immediately, and is still great today some 25 years later. I think it's easier to make a case that Akiyama is better than the three hyped pillars than Taue.
I'll agree with you on Akiyama since he is my all time favorite. Heck, he's probably my booker of the year so far as well.

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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by pol » Wed May 18, 2016 12:10 am

When it comes to forming my own opinion I couldn't care less what people thought at the time, especially Dave. I don't think Taue is better than the other three pillars, but I do think he's massively underrated because he was physically awkward, didn't do as many "cool moves" and didn't work the same fighting spirit epic style as the other three. I wish we could stop with this kind of bad faith nonsense:
Joe Lanza wrote:it strikes me as one of those things were people are just tired of hearing the same regurgitated boring opinions for 20 years and have latched on to a new hot take..
and just take people's opinions as being what they actually believe. It's a lot more conducive to quality discussion. Personally I know that isn't the case for me because I only went through the 90s AJPW stuff in the last few years.

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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Wed May 18, 2016 8:17 am

pol wrote:When it comes to forming my own opinion I couldn't care less what people thought at the time, especially Dave. I don't think Taue is better than the other three pillars, but I do think he's massively underrated because he was physically awkward, didn't do as many "cool moves" and didn't work the same fighting spirit epic style as the other three. I wish we could stop with this kind of bad faith nonsense:
Joe Lanza wrote:it strikes me as one of those things were people are just tired of hearing the same regurgitated boring opinions for 20 years and have latched on to a new hot take..
and just take people's opinions as being what they actually believe. It's a lot more conducive to quality discussion. Personally I know that isn't the case for me because I only went through the 90s AJPW stuff in the last few years.
Nothing in bad faith there. Just reality. I literally never heard anyone pimp Taue ahead of the other three in real time, or even ever, until the last couple of years. That doesn't negate your opinion (which by the way, appears to be no different than mine) or anybody elses, but I do think it is important to note. Maybe Taue comes across better in hindsight or to fresh eyes, and that's fine and worthwhile, but I don't see why the real time reps aren't relevant to the discussion too.

I do think there are times when against the grain opinions pick up steam. Taue being better than the other three is one of these things I've seen pop up recently that strikes me as something new. That's what I was trying to point out.

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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by PKThree » Wed May 18, 2016 9:15 am

Moving on to another topic. The June 20 show looks like it is going to be an absolute thrill to watch

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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Wed May 18, 2016 12:34 pm

PKThree wrote:Moving on to another topic. The June 20 show looks like it is going to be an absolute thrill to watch
I hindsight, I think all of the guys who left over the financial issues might have ended up being the best thing for all parties involved. From the AJPW perspective, it removed four salaries from the payroll, and it forced them into this partnership with BJW which has been nothing but great. I really think it has a chance to sell out.

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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by PKThree » Wed May 18, 2016 12:57 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
I hindsight, I think all of the guys who left over the financial issues might have ended up being the best thing for all parties involved. From the AJPW perspective, it removed four salaries from the payroll, and it forced them into this partnership with BJW which has been nothing but great. I really think it has a chance to sell out.
Even without the BJW thing it was the best for all parties involved. The guys who left got better pay (I assume), and Jun took the company in a new direction. AJPW seems to have landed better after this exodus than the earlier ones. There's a direction and identity for the company now it seems. And the young guys have landed well in their new roles.

The BJW partnership is a nice touch to it all tho and I can only see it benefitting both parties for the time being

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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Wed May 18, 2016 1:19 pm

PKThree wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:
I hindsight, I think all of the guys who left over the financial issues might have ended up being the best thing for all parties involved. From the AJPW perspective, it removed four salaries from the payroll, and it forced them into this partnership with BJW which has been nothing but great. I really think it has a chance to sell out.
Even without the BJW thing it was the best for all parties involved. The guys who left got better pay (I assume), and Jun took the company in a new direction. AJPW seems to have landed better after this exodus than the earlier ones. There's a direction and identity for the company now it seems. And the young guys have landed well in their new roles.

The BJW partnership is a nice touch to it all tho and I can only see it benefitting both parties for the time being
Kanemaru & Suzuki flat out said it was a pay issue. They were just guys on the roster anyway and AJPW is better off without them clogging payroll. Akebono appears to be in terrible physical shape and aside from Miyahara never getting the big win over his bully, I don't see him as much of a loss at this point. Go would have been useful to have around, but again that's a presumed (relatively) big salary they were able to cross off the books, and at the end of the day what did he mean for box office?

Go & Kanemaru landed in a more secure place and are being pushed better than they would have been in AJPW. The Miyahara push was coming no matter what and that was essentially Go's spot that he failed to fill. Unless Suzuki expected to end up in NOAH, I have to assume he's OK with being in W1, otherwise he would have stayed.

The jumps cleared payroll and cleared up spots not only for the BJW guys, but also the local indie guys they book when they do the Osaka loop. Partnering with other companies is a good strategy that has helped house show business.

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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by Irving » Wed May 18, 2016 2:03 pm

That situation is interesting. All Japan would run bout 12 dates a month and the guys did not work outside promotions at the time. Akiyama was against this for the longest time as he truly believed the best thing to do was to establish the product through hard matches. It somewhat worked with Go/Miyahara going on that string of great tag title matches last summer that saw increases in Korakuen attendance but with dates cutting back and the spotlight not being on Go in a singles capacity definitely was what fueled him to leave.

Miyahara was pretty pissed because it looks like there were plans for him to go over Go eventually and right as they were beginning to get Xceed over in a major way Go bailed.

Kanemaru was Akiyama's right hand man and Kotaro was good friends with Aoki and they pretty much begged them both to stay at least in a freelance capacity but both bailed. The junior division is pretty scarce in All Japan so I believe that and the money had more to do with it for Kotaro because it looks like he works even less than he would have had he stayed but now he actually has people to work against that does the junior style he's into.

Akiyama may have cut All Japan dates but the guys still work BJW and other promotions so it balances out and they cleared up five major salaries as KENSO was the first one to bail.

My only issue with the current direction is there are no kids in the dojo and that has to change so he can eventually fill the cards out with his own prospects aka Muto and W1.

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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by PKThree » Wed May 18, 2016 2:38 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:

Kanemaru & Suzuki flat out said it was a pay issue. They were just guys on the roster anyway and AJPW is better off without them clogging payroll. Akebono appears to be in terrible physical shape and aside from Miyahara never getting the big win over his bully, I don't see him as much of a loss at this point. Go would have been useful to have around, but again that's a presumed (relatively) big salary they were able to cross off the books, and at the end of the day what did he mean for box office?

Go & Kanemaru landed in a more secure place and are being pushed better than they would have been in AJPW. The Miyahara push was coming no matter what and that was essentially Go's spot that he failed to fill. Unless Suzuki expected to end up in NOAH, I have to assume he's OK with being in W1, otherwise he would have stayed.

The jumps cleared payroll and cleared up spots not only for the BJW guys, but also the local indie guys they book when they do the Osaka loop. Partnering with other companies is a good strategy that has helped house show business.
It worked out the best for everyone involved it seems. Aoki, out of the Burning guys seems to be the one who hit the ground running best so to speak when they came to All Japan to begin with. He entrenched himself more into the roster proper (aligning with Suwama and Joe for example) than Suzuki, Kanemaru and Go.

Credit to Jun for helping the company land and stabilize. Now the regrowing process can start slowly but surely. He's gotten new money into the company apart from the freed up pay (the AJPW sponsors page has some nice companies on it, and he seems to have formalized a deal with Nico for distribution of shows). Gotten a new show structure that works for the size AJPW is at now, and his booking is fun. I've enjoyed all AJPW content this year so far. All he needs now is some new trainees (that should only be a matter of time) and to get the houses back up, which will take time but we're already seeing the signs of slow growth in good markets.

If we're willing to be patient, I think AJPW will become a nice B-level company

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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by Chismo » Wed May 18, 2016 5:28 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:Taue being better than the other three pillars is a new thing that cropped up over the last couple of years. Nobody was saying that in real time, so it strikes me as one of those things were people are just tired of hearing the same regurgitated boring opinions for 20 years and have latched on to a new hot take.
Haha, that's bullshit, I just don't know any other way to describe it. There were always people who preferred Taue over other three, even dating from deep wres web days. I have never seen a critically acclaimed match featuring Taue where someone outworked him. Other 4-5 guys were doing their usual thing, it was Taue stepping up and elevating matches. I still remember the 2004-06 era very clearly where Taue's stellar NOAH performances made a lot of people revisit the 90s and discover new things about him and his role. No one is actually saying Taue is better wrestler than the other 3-4, but simply that there were times and places where Taue looked the best of the bunch. One of your arguments is insider jokes/memes, which is ridiculous, like that's something new in wrestling or sports in general, ultimately it doesn't mean anything. God forbid there are people who love minimalistic wrestlers.

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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Wed May 18, 2016 6:08 pm

Irving wrote:That situation is interesting. All Japan would run bout 12 dates a month and the guys did not work outside promotions at the time. Akiyama was against this for the longest time as he truly believed the best thing to do was to establish the product through hard matches. It somewhat worked with Go/Miyahara going on that string of great tag title matches last summer that saw increases in Korakuen attendance but with dates cutting back and the spotlight not being on Go in a singles capacity definitely was what fueled him to leave.

Miyahara was pretty pissed because it looks like there were plans for him to go over Go eventually and right as they were beginning to get Xceed over in a major way Go bailed.

Kanemaru was Akiyama's right hand man and Kotaro was good friends with Aoki and they pretty much begged them both to stay at least in a freelance capacity but both bailed. The junior division is pretty scarce in All Japan so I believe that and the money had more to do with it for Kotaro because it looks like he works even less than he would have had he stayed but now he actually has people to work against that does the junior style he's into.

Akiyama may have cut All Japan dates but the guys still work BJW and other promotions so it balances out and they cleared up five major salaries as KENSO was the first one to bail.

My only issue with the current direction is there are no kids in the dojo and that has to change so he can eventually fill the cards out with his own prospects aka Muto and W1.
I forgot all about KENSO.

Pretty great post right here.

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