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Danwaka
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Danwaka » Sat May 28, 2016 11:54 am

wac wrote:Every time I'm reminded of how over Ricochet is in Japan the entire concept of a junior division feels so silly and outdated.
Openweight and Intercontinental titles should be de facto Openweight, IMO. A Omega-Ricochet match would sell a B-PPV right now.
Last edited by Danwaka on Sat May 28, 2016 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat May 28, 2016 12:33 pm

Juniors should try, and fail, to win the NEVER on occasion, building to an eventual big win.

NOAH got spooked very quickly when KENTA & Maru bombed (which is funny in hindsight because NOAH, and anybody really, would kill to put 15,000 in Budokan or anywhere else today), and I think there is still fear from everyone to try it. If you have a hot junior, it's best to just do the "he's moving yp to heavyweight" thing for perception rather than "juniors can go toe to toe with the big guys".

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by ayaashm » Sat May 28, 2016 12:36 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:Juniors should try, and fail, to win the NEVER on occasion, building to an eventual big win.

NOAH got spooked very quickly when KENTA & Maru bombed (which is funny in hindsight because NOAH, and anybody really, would kill to put 15,000 in Budokan or anywhere else today), and I think there is still fear from everyone to try it. If you have a hot junior, it's best to just do the "he's moving yp to heavyweight" thing for perception rather than "juniors can go toe to toe with the big guys".
I wish they moved Ricochet up to the heavy's. To me he's like Omega and can go up any time.
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JML
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by JML » Sat May 28, 2016 1:04 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:Juniors should try, and fail, to win the NEVER on occasion, building to an eventual big win.

NOAH got spooked very quickly when KENTA & Maru bombed (which is funny in hindsight because NOAH, and anybody really, would kill to put 15,000 in Budokan or anywhere else today), and I think there is still fear from everyone to try it. If you have a hot junior, it's best to just do the "he's moving yp to heavyweight" thing for perception rather than "juniors can go toe to toe with the big guys".
I remember the actual number for that show being close to 9 or 10k and NOAH straight up lied about the house. I have to do some digging of either the old Obsevers or one of the Stu Max sites though the Wayback Machine.

The thing about that show is that it made up as one match show in the first place. It had a really weak undercard compared to the cards earlier in the year that awesome. The fans of NOAH popped for the old guys as they did for Misawa winning the belt off of Marufuji the next month but they weren't into Jun Akiyama's title run so the Marufuji title win worked and KENTA being his challenger made sense since KENTA beat him earlier in the year. I think if they stuck with it, they would've took a hit but not catastrophe.

With New Japan, they historically have done it with juniors and should take a shot here with the current crop of guys they have. I'm pulling from last couple of years but Devitt vs Okada was enjoyable and so was Kanemoto vs Tanashashi. Why not have a Naito title defense with a Junior?

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by DETROIT_KEJB » Sat May 28, 2016 1:14 pm

I hate looking like a contrarian but that Ospreay/Ricochet match was not my flavor at all. I think the Dragon Lee-Kamaitachi match from Japan shits all over it.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat May 28, 2016 1:15 pm

JML wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:Juniors should try, and fail, to win the NEVER on occasion, building to an eventual big win.

NOAH got spooked very quickly when KENTA & Maru bombed (which is funny in hindsight because NOAH, and anybody really, would kill to put 15,000 in Budokan or anywhere else today), and I think there is still fear from everyone to try it. If you have a hot junior, it's best to just do the "he's moving yp to heavyweight" thing for perception rather than "juniors can go toe to toe with the big guys".
I remember the actual number for that show being close to 9 or 10k and NOAH straight up lied about the house. I have to do some digging of either the old Obsevers or one of the Stu Max sites though the Wayback Machine.

The thing about that show is that it made up as one match show in the first place. It had a really weak undercard compared to the cards earlier in the year that awesome. The fans of NOAH popped for the old guys as they did for Misawa winning the belt off of Marufuji the next month but they weren't into Jun Akiyama's title run so the Marufuji title win worked and KENTA being his challenger made sense since KENTA beat him earlier in the year. I think if they stuck with it, they would've took a hit but not catastrophe.

With New Japan, they historically have done it with juniors and should take a shot here with the current crop of guys they have. I'm pulling from last couple of years but Devitt vs Okada was enjoyable and so was Kanemoto vs Tanashashi. Why not have a Naito title defense with a Junior?
Yeah you're right, I just pulled up cagematch and typed what they has listed, but even 9k would be a good number for even NJPW right now. Crazy.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that NOAH should have stuck it out with Maru & KENTA. Even if it ultimately failed, they needed to move on from Misawa and those were the best options.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by JML » Sat May 28, 2016 1:25 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
JML wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:Juniors should try, and fail, to win the NEVER on occasion, building to an eventual big win.

NOAH got spooked very quickly when KENTA & Maru bombed (which is funny in hindsight because NOAH, and anybody really, would kill to put 15,000 in Budokan or anywhere else today), and I think there is still fear from everyone to try it. If you have a hot junior, it's best to just do the "he's moving yp to heavyweight" thing for perception rather than "juniors can go toe to toe with the big guys".
I remember the actual number for that show being close to 9 or 10k and NOAH straight up lied about the house. I have to do some digging of either the old Obsevers or one of the Stu Max sites though the Wayback Machine.

The thing about that show is that it made up as one match show in the first place. It had a really weak undercard compared to the cards earlier in the year that awesome. The fans of NOAH popped for the old guys as they did for Misawa winning the belt off of Marufuji the next month but they weren't into Jun Akiyama's title run so the Marufuji title win worked and KENTA being his challenger made sense since KENTA beat him earlier in the year. I think if they stuck with it, they would've took a hit but not catastrophe.

With New Japan, they historically have done it with juniors and should take a shot here with the current crop of guys they have. I'm pulling from last couple of years but Devitt vs Okada was enjoyable and so was Kanemoto vs Tanashashi. Why not have a Naito title defense with a Junior?
Yeah you're right, I just pulled up cagematch and typed what they has listed, but even 9k would be a good number for even NJPW right now. Crazy.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that NOAH should have stuck it out with Maru & KENTA. Even if it ultimately failed, they needed to move on from Misawa and those were the best options.
You're right about 9k being a good number. Why doesn't New Japan or any other promotion run Budokan Hall anymore? 9k is attainable number in that building.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by mprentice84 » Sat May 28, 2016 2:53 pm

From a sheer athletic standpoint, Ricochet v. Ospreay was one of the most impressive matches i've ever seen. The strong reaction on Twitter from both sides has been really fascinating to watch unfold. Like pretty much every 'battle' on social media, the reasonable people are always somewhere in the middle.

I really enjoyed Volador Jr and Liger as well. The main event is really overshadowing what I had at a four star match.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by mprentice84 » Sat May 28, 2016 3:05 pm

As long as both are presented like a big deal, I like having a separate division for the Junior and Heavyweight wrestlers.

Junior's should be allowed to move up on occasion, but a 175lb Junior should rarely beat a 235lb Heavyweight. When it does happen, the intended reaction should be something along the lines of when Sakuraba choked out Rampage Jackson in PRIDE.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Garuda » Sat May 28, 2016 3:29 pm

I didn't know what Case was talking about in his review when he hinted that the match would be divisive. Felt like a slam dunk to me.

This is one of the hardest things for me as a hobbyist of anything. A younger me would've put people who didn't like this on blast. Even as a closet contrarian myself my knee-jerk is to try and run people down as haters for not liking it.

And I feel that knee-jerk now, but I took a breath and thought it out. It's wrestling fandom, I'm sure there's some cynical dicks who just want to disagree. But ultimately, it is a peculiar match with a specific style. With any art you have to let people have their reactions, because even with the best and worst art there's a spectrum of responses and that's fine. For some people this match didn't come together psychologically, and that's their truth. Power to 'em, now it's up to them to not get in the same but opposite objective argument about how everyone else is wrong for feeling differently. Hard to do.

As for people who are taking it in the extreme dissent argument, like Vader, and claiming that this portents a bad wind for wrestling: that's nuts. And again, people online trend towards the extreme arguments, so you just have to shrug. And I also agree that when you watch Will Ospraey, I always feel like I'm watching the future. Maybe he IS the vanguard of a sea-change in wrestling, (keeping this maritime metaphor ALIVE). But I think it's premature at best to look at Ospraey matches and groan or even cheer his work as some taste of things to come. It's yet more likely that you're seeing either one wrestlers specific style, or the particular match style of the matches between these two competitors, since Ospraey's other matches are rarely this spot heavy.

TL;DR - I'm trying to let people have their opinions on this match, but people who are trying to scry the future of wrestling and complain about it have traveled nine steps ahead of themselves for the sake of grousing.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Frank Olson » Sat May 28, 2016 5:45 pm

Vader is one of my all-time favorites, but I don't there's any question that his wrestling style (basically just beating the shit out of his opponents for real) takes less skill than what Ospreay and Ricochet did in that match. That isn't to say that anyone has to prefer the crazy high flying junior style to the super hard hitting style of Vader (both can make for great matches) but to say that one style is the way that all wrestling should be seems pretty silly.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Danwaka » Sat May 28, 2016 6:25 pm

Eh. Speaking personally, the flips have never really done it for me. I've always loved (and cringed) at Vader matches more than I've enjoyed Bucks matches. Osprey and Ricochet are far better than the Bucks about keeping things balanced, but their version of upping the stakes takes it from "believable athleticism" to "Now you're just putting on a spectacle without logic". Though I do think I'm far more accepting of it in a lucha setting than I am in Japan. Maybe that's just expectations creating certain biases in me.

Fair play though to anyone who enjoys it. You certainly got a dream match down to a tee with those two.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by wac » Sat May 28, 2016 8:52 pm

Their EVOLVE match felt like a passing of the torch moment. This match felt like Ricochet was sick of hearing about how Ospreay had passed him and was determined to remind everyone what he's capable of. Anyone who thinks this match had no psychology is nuts.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Leo C » Sat May 28, 2016 9:31 pm

I'm not the biggest fan of flippy matches, but I was really enjoying this one up until Ospreay (I think) no sold a DVD on the apron and hit a reverse rana or something afterwards.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by jesse » Sat May 28, 2016 9:38 pm

DETROIT_KEJB wrote:I hate looking like a contrarian but that Ospreay/Ricochet match was not my flavor at all. I think the Dragon Lee-Kamaitachi match from Japan shits all over it.
Don't worry I feel the same way. I also think for all the talk of this being a historical match people won't remember it in 5 months. This style feels like fast food. It's so good when you first get it and you love it but then later on it's really not as satisfying as you think. More power to everyone that is high on the match. I thought it was fine and they did great and all of that but it's not my thing.
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